Federation Commander

[Mike]

I should know this, but with the new ruling, exactly when does an EMing player have to actually pay the energy cost to EM? When it is announced, or when it starts to happen?

[OGREAI]

Mike,

That is unclear. I was going to ask that along with other questions.

Rule 2D4a states:

"Engery cost: At the end of the Defensive Fire Phase (1E2c) of any Impulse, you may announce Evasive Maneuvers. You may only do this once in any given turn. This costs Energy Tokens equal to six movement points ( a destroyer with a movemnt point cost of 1/2 would pay three points, a cruiser six and a dreadnought nine, and half of these costs in Fleet Scale). The ship is then considerered to be "maneuvering evasively" for the rest of the turn."

so it could be either pay at Announcement (Defensive Fire Phase) or pay at Effect (Other Phase)

I would like to add the following questions:

1) Can a ship be under Evasive Maneuvers in the Offensive Fire Phase of Impulse #1 if it was NOT under Evasive Maneuvers in Impulse #8 of the previous turn? (Rule 2D4d implies[emphasis mine] continuation of Evasive Manuveurs not starting new ones)

2) A clarification - If Ship A declares Evasive Maneuvers in the Defensive Fire Phase, can they still fire direct fire weapons in the Offensive Fire Phase immeadiately afterwards? (they are not under Evasive Maneuvers yet, though they may have paid for it)

3) If payment for Evasive Maneuvers is not until the Other Phase, can it be "voided" by not having the energy available at that time?

My suggestion to clear up questions and issues would be the same as what someone else made earlier, let's just KISS this issue and make Evasive Maneuvers declare start and end in the Other Phase like cloaks.

This will end the confusion that was caused by the "two impulse" minimum length. It would function much more like Cloaks do now (fewer differences in rules nuances for less experienced players to stumble on). There would be no "delay in effect" to remember and would work like most of the Federation Commander system of paying power when needed/used. Seeking weapons users will get a quick shot off after leaving Evasive Maneuvers. Direct Fire users get their quick shot right before going under Evasive Maneuver restrictions.

OGRE AI

[junior]

My guesses as to the answers (and reasoning) -

1.) I don't think that the rules allow this. So far as I can tell, the only time that you can declare EM is in the Defensive Fire Phase. So if you want EM benefits during the Impulse 1 Offensive Fire Phase, then you need to declare during Impulse 8 of the previous turn. Note that there's nothing here that changes between the original EM rules and the change in Communique.
2.) Yes, since the effects (including penalties) will not apply until the end of the Offensive Fire Phase.
3.) I would argue that the ability to do such would be considered an exploit, and payment for EM needs to be made when it is declared.

[OGREAI]

[OGREAI]

I hate replying to my own reply, but I just finished reading the Legacy board on this topic.

Junior, as per your suggestion over there, I agree that making Evasive Maneuver declaration in the "Start of Impulse" phase would have the same effect as the suggestion to make it trigger in the Other Phase.

Actually yours is even a bit better as we:

1) Tie Evasive Maneuvers to actual maneuvering
2) Improve the elimination of the "End of Turn" interactions (Just start again next turn when you declare at the start of Impulse #1)
3) Keep the "timing" issue tied to nice "Impulse sized" chunks of time.
4) Help the empires most hurt by the crutch Evasive Maneuver tactic by allowing them to see the Evasive Maneuver BEFORE they burn a High Energy Turn (EM-start of Impulse, HET - sub-Pulse of movement)

I officially change my request for consideration to that of junior's

OGRE AI

[jmt]

I don't think it's as difficult as you make it out. Consider:

1. Impulse 8, Defensive Fire Phase: you declare EM at the end of the Defensive Fire phase.
2. Impulse 8, Direct Fire Phase: your opponent gets to fire on you during the Direct Fire phase. (There's still the question if you can fire at this point)
3. Impulse 8, Direct Fire Phase: you get the benefits of EM at the end of the Direct File phase.
4. Impulse 8: The rest of the impluse completes.
5. Turn Next, Power Allocation Step: You allocate power to maintian EM.
6. Impulse 1: you're still EM, it's never dropped.

The end of turn and beginning of turn steps take 0 time as far as effects are considered. Therefore, Impulse 8 occurs immediately before Impulse 1 as Impulse 1 occurs immediately before Impulse 8.
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jmt

[mjwest]

junior is correct.

Some clarifications:

- As junior points out, nothing else in the Evasive Maneuvers rules change. So you still have the two impulse delay before you can stop EM.

- The only time you may "declare" Evasive Maneuvers during Energy Allocation is when continuing them. If continuing, there is no break in the "action", so you are fully protected (and restricted) on Impulse #1.

- You pay the energy at declaration.

- Both ships may fire without restriction in the direct fire phase between declaration and EM taking effect.
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Federation Commander Answer Guy

[jmt]

Should've waited before posting that question.
Thanks, Mike.
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jmt

[OGREAI]

[Vladimyr]

Was it ever mentioned why the continuation of EM during energy allocation counts as "starting" EM for the purposes of cancelling EM later?

Many's the time I have been witness to ships being evasive for over 8 impulses and the optimum time for dropping EM occurs on impulse 1 or 2.

Anyone know the reason why one cannot cancel EM during the first two impulses of a turn after energy allocation? (Assuming of course that you have already been evasive for the minimum 2 impulses prior to that point.)

[junior]

[Vladimyr]

To quote Briefing #1:

(2D4d) Spending power to continue Evasive Maneuvers over the turn break counts as an "Announcement" for the purposes of Termination. Consequently, if Evasive Maneuvers are continued over a turn break, they may not be terminated until Impulse #3.

According to how I read this, you can't.

[mjwest]

Vladimir is correct, even if continuing EM over the start of a turn, it is counted as "starting" again, and therefore cannot be canceled in Impulse 1 or 2.

Quite frankly, I don't have a great explanation for that ruling. (I had originally ruled along the lines of junior's comment, but that was overruled.) It is just the way it works.
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Federation Commander Answer Guy

[storeylf]

[mjwest]