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Evasive Maneuvers proposal
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OGREAI
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Joined: 02 Jun 2008
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Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
storeylf wrote:
mjwest wrote:
Vladimir is correct, even if continuing EM over the start of a turn, it is counted as "starting" again, and therefore cannot be canceled in Impulse 1 or 2.

Quite frankly, I don't have a great explanation for that ruling. (I had originally ruled along the lines of junior's comment, but that was overruled.) It is just the way it works.


It appears (to me) to have been a way to stop ships being EM at the start of turn, drop out for 1 impulse to shoot then go straight back into EM again. You can only announce EM 1/turn, so making the turn start an 'announcement' prevents that.


Oh, I agree with that (and with that purpose). I just wish that it was exempt from triggering the two impulse delay.


I forgot about that ruling Embarassed

So now that means you CANNOT be under Evasive Maneuvers on Turn X Impulse#8 and Turn Y Impulse #1 only... You wouldn't be able to reply to Offensive Fire until Impulse # 3.

This is worse than what I postulated earlier.

Mjwest, or even SVC, could we hear your thoughts or comments on Junior's suggestion to just make Evasive Manveuvering declarations be made during the "Start of Impulse" phase? If there are reservations against that idea, I'm interested in hearing them.

Again, thank you Mjwest for moderating this sometimes rowdy bunch, and SVC for bringing us FC and helping me come back to the SFU

OGRE AI
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edited out

Last edited by Mike on Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rules on continuing EM into another turn has not changed in any way. It is still the same as it was last week.
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OGREAI
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjwest,

If your reply was directed towards me, Yes I understand that continuing EM into another turn is not a change. Sorry if my prior post seemed like I was shocked.

Mike,

Considering your example, I think there is a mistake. According to the rule update in Communique #32:

(2D4a) Evasive maneuvering takes effect at the
end of the subsequent Direct Fire Phase, in effect giving
the enemy “one last shot” without a penalty.
- Underline is my emphasis

First, this should be reworded as FC has no "Direct Fire Phase" we have an Offensive Fire Phase.

Second, I think you might have misread that Mike, effecting your example.

Here is my example (to illustrate my understanding of the current state of EM)

Turn X, Impulse #1 - Player A declares and pays for Evasivew Maneuvers at the end of the Defensive Fire Phase. Player A can fire during the Offensive Fire Phase and be fired upon normally. At the end of Offensive Fire Phase (the subsequent Direct Fire phase mentioned in 2D4a) Evasive Maneuvers take effect. Player A CAN NOT use Transporters or Tractors during the Other Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers. Player A CAN NOT launch seeking weapons during the Launch Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers.

Turn X, Impulse #2 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.

Turn X, Impulse #3 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.

Turn X, Impulse #4 - Player A can (rule 2D4d) during the Speed Change Phase terminate Evasive Maneuvers as this is the FIRST Speed Change Phase after two complete Impulses have passed. Player A choses to terminate Evasive Maneuvers. All Evasive Maneuver effect are terminated immeadiately. Player A maneuvers with a normal turn mode throughout the following 4 Sub-Pulses. Player A has no effects of Evasive Maneuvers during Defensive Fire, Offensive Fire, Other or Launch Phases.

Player A can no longer use Evasive Maneuvers for the rest of Turn X

The above actions cost Player A six times his ship's Move Cost.

Now if Player A had started that a little later:

Turn X, Impulse #8 - Player A declares and pays for Evasivew Maneuvers at the end of the Defensive Fire Phase. Player A can fire during the Offensive Fire Phase and be fired upon normally. At the end of Offensive Fire Phase (the subsequent Direct Fire phase mentioned in 2D4a) Evasive Maneuvers take effect. Player A CAN NOT use Transporters or Tractors during the Other Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers. Player A CAN NOT launch seeking weapons during the Launch Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers.

Turn X, End of Turn Phase - per (2D4d) Termination: Evasive Manuevers terminate for Player A

Turn Y, Energy Allocation Phase - per (2D4d) Termination: Evasive Maneuvers do not continue into the next turn (unless power is spent in Energy Allocation Phase of that turn, which counts as the one time you can adopt Evasive Maneuvers for that turn). Player A decides to "continue" Evasive Maneuvers and pays the power for it. The two impulse clock resets to zero and starts.

Turn Y, Impulse #1 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.

Turn Y, Impulse #2 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.

Turn Y, Impulse #3 - Player A can (rule 2D4d) during the Speed Change Phase terminate Evasive Maneuvers as this is the FIRST Speed Change Phase after two complete Impulses have passed. Player A choses to terminate Evasive Maneuvers. All Evasive Maneuver effect are terminated immeadiately. Player A maneuvers with a normal turnmode throughout the following 4 Sub-Pulses. Player A has no effects of Evasive Maneuvers during Defensive Fire, Offensive Fire, Other or Luanch Phases.

Player A can no longer use Evasive Maneuvers for the rest of Turn Y

The above actions means that Player A paid six times his ship's Move Cost twice (Turn X, Impulse #8 and Turn Y Energy Allocation Phase) for the following effect:

No Evasive Maneuvering effects in Turn X, Impulse #8 except the restrictions on the Other and Launch Phases.

Evasive Maneuvering effects cover all of Turn Y, Impulses #1 & 2

This is the only method of using the effects of Evasive Maneuvering that would effect Offensive Fire during Impulse #1 of any turn.

If any of that is in error, please correct me and my understanding of Evasive Maneuvering as it currently stands. I am sorry to be this long winded, but I wished to be crystal clear and avoid any ambiguity in meaning by shortening my words.

Thanks,

OGRE AI
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jmt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OgreAI, thanks for the detailed presentation.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OGREAI wrote:
I am sorry to be this long winded, but I wished to be crystal clear and avoid any ambiguity in meaning by shortening my words.

It's always best to sort out ambiguities before you are in the heat of combat Smile Nice example, let's see what he says.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I stated in my first anti-change post -----,
SadA minor change, thats not all that minor Sad

Change should add, if you pay the energy for an continuing action, it should last an entire turn (8 impulses --- end of turn or not)

Looks like MJ put much more time into setting up his argument than he gave figuring out the effects it would have overall ----

While we're at making unnecessary changes, I want my Scatter Pack back so I don't have to close to his effective range ---
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ogre:

You're absolutely right! Again, I'm an idiot. For some crazy, unexplained reason I guess I read into that rule something it wasn't saying. I was thinking it meant that EM would not take place until the next Impulse, but that is not what it means at all.

Thanks! Any my apologies for my incorrect post.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
As I stated in my first anti-change post -----,
SadA minor change, thats not all that minor Sad

Change should add, if you pay the energy for an continuing action, it should last an entire turn (8 impulses --- end of turn or not)

Looks like MJ put much more time into setting up his argument than he gave figuring out the effects it would have overall ----

While we're at making unnecessary changes, I want my Scatter Pack back so I don't have to close to his effective range ---


Then the feds back their proximity photons. I'm sure that if people find that it makes a bad difference, then the rules will likely change back. But as of now, we should just live with it and continue having fun playing FC.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piney ---

You can use Prox in any game you play vs me ---
Just save enough energy to EM while I pound on you at range 1 or 2 for a turn and 1/2 while you reload ----
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OGREAI wrote:
First, this should be reworded as FC has no "Direct Fire Phase" we have an Offensive Fire Phase.

Good point. I will remember that.

Quote:
No Evasive Maneuvering effects in Turn X, Impulse #8 except the restrictions on the Other and Launch Phases.

Which, I would like to point out, is not worthless. Spending six movement points to EM and become un-tractorable can be much, much more energy efficient than trying to negate a tractor from a larger ship ...

Quote:
If any of that is in error, please correct me and my understanding of Evasive Maneuvering as it currently stands. I am sorry to be this long winded, but I wished to be crystal clear and avoid any ambiguity in meaning by shortening my words.


I believe your detailed examples are correct.
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OGREAI
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
OGREAI wrote:
First, this should be reworded as FC has no "Direct Fire Phase" we have an Offensive Fire Phase.

Good point. I will remember that.


You are welcome. Thank you for your hard work.

mjwest wrote:
OGREAI wrote:
No Evasive Maneuvering effects in Turn X, Impulse #8 except the restrictions on the Other and Launch Phases.

Which, I would like to point out, is not worthless. Spending six movement points to EM and become un-tractorable can be much, much more energy efficient than trying to negate a tractor from a larger ship ...


Absolutely. I am sorry I failed to mention that. Sad Very Happy

mjwest wrote:
OGREAI wrote:
If any of that is in error, please correct me and my understanding of Evasive Maneuvering as it currently stands. I am sorry to be this long winded, but I wished to be crystal clear and avoid any ambiguity in meaning by shortening my words.


I believe your detailed examples are correct.


Thanks again. I just wanted to be accurate and clearly note that all Impulses are not alike. Until I get in much playtesting, this topic is closed for me. Smile

OGRE AI
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The impulse (even the next turn) after a Fed (or Hydran w/Fusion) dumps its load, EM becomes a who cares ----

If the target retains a fair amount of its weapons and power, its the Fed/Hydran that should be worrying about EM, not the one they fired at ----
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junior
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
The impulse (even the next turn) after a Fed (or Hydran w/Fusion) dumps its load, EM becomes a who cares ----


Not entirely true. Center-lined Gatling Phasers are still quite capable of blowing a shield down at point blank range the turn after the Hydran unloads his or her Fusion Beams. EM can turn a very nasty Gatling Phaser barrage at a couple of hexes out into minor shield damage.

The fact of the matter is that if you're playing against either race (or Tholian photons), then the only excuse for getting that close is if you're running a plasma ship. And then you're just looking for the short range necessary to catch your opponent with a full salvo of torpedoes.

The rest of the time, you should be keeping the range open.
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jmt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
The rest of the time, you should be keeping the range open.


EXACTLY! Very Happy
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