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A question about new EM rule
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by storeylf on Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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silent bob
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Joined: 30 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

using plasma I rarely launch it. normally either carronade (which are awesome) or bolt it as opponents tend to run speed 24 with spare energy just in case. i will launch plasma if my opponent makes a mistake and goes slow as then its far better than the previous options.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had to leave before I finished last post.

Going back to the battle cruisers noted earlier. The Fed has 6 photons which generally seem to be considered effective from range 4, when they hit on a 1-4. That would make expected damage 64pts for full overloads. The similar gorn ship (heavy battlecruiser) can do the same or greater damage as long as the plasmas hits within 4 impulses or gets phasered for less than 132 damage, or some combination of the 2. The Fed only needs 2 turns compared to 3, but the Gorn only needs 31 power to 48 (and that is 48 crammed over 2 turns). In fact it can do that whilst holding onto the F's, which (more than) equalises out with the Feds drones I suppose.

Quote:
But, if you look at similarly pointed ships, you will see plasma is always lacking; therefor, both weaker and more difficult.


Ignoring difficulty in effectively using the weapons I just don't see how a plasma ship of similar points is automatically weaker. More difficult to use, probably.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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ShockRocket
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Thats where we differ, if you used [plasma torpedoes] effectively then you have minimised the defenses against them - you made sure he couldn't effectively run, that he can't effectively phaser them etc.
But you can say the same things about photons; if you're in a place where the enemy going EM ruins your attack plan, then you didn't "use" your photons properly.

storeylf wrote:
The Fed [battlecruiser] has 6 photons...
But it can only fire four in any one turn.
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junior
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Rock wrote:
All that was discussed by you was how photons (and HBs) were "neutered" by EM.


Fusion Beams, actually. Hellbores don't worry as much about two point die roll shifts as other weapons do. And they've got a very nice range on them. EM on Fusion Beams is what's brutal.


The only reason that plasma ships would be more affected by this ruling than any other ship type is because plasma torpedoes are the best weapon to use in conjunction with EM. You launch your plasmas, use EM, and don't have to worry about your seeking weapons going "poof" on you, unlike with drones and suicide shuttles. In any case, anyone actually getting close enough to a plasma ship that would be unable to go to EM in time (i.e. because it just launched its plasma torpedoes) clearly has a death wish, imo...
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShockRocket wrote:
But you can say the same things about photons; if you're in a place where the enemy going EM ruins your attack plan, then you didn't "use" your photons properly.


agreed, i wasn't debating the EM thing, but the bit about plasma being weak.

Quote:

But it can only fire four in any one turn.


Lol - yes, was just looking for 2 equal pointed ships to compare. didn't pick up on that.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:

Fusion Beams, actually. Hellbores don't worry as much about two point die roll shifts as other weapons do. And they've got a very nice range on them. EM on Fusion Beams is what's brutal.


Fusions aren't that badly effected, expected damage drops by something like, what, ~11% at range 0, or ~16% at range 1. In percentage terms that is approximately the same drop in effectiveness for hellbores at the same range. Plus you are still guaranteed damage with fusion. And if you are being shot by fusions you are probably being shot by Ph-G as well, which aren't to badly effected either.

I think Photons are the worst affected by EM (probably by quite some way), not that I see anything wrong with that as such, in a game with many weapon systems and races etc there is always going to be winners and loser in such comparisons.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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ShockRocket
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean, I kind of see where the ruling is coming from. In general, FC seems to try to avoid the idea of "inadvertent preemption"--basically, the Me-Too rule. With EM taking effect before Offensive Fire, there was no way to say "oh well if he's going to EM, then I'll fire now, because I probably won't get a better shot than I've got right now."

My problem with this ruling is that I always considered EM to be a reaction--as in "whoops I messed up and the Fed got to Range 4 before I fired, I better go EM and try to re-do my attack run". This won't be possible any more.

Another problem is that this ruling makes EM something you have to plan out in advance--and I got the impression that this was something else that FC was trying to avoid, the SFB method of "plan all thirty-two impulses during EA". Players will now be required to make a decision about EM before they know whether or not they'll actually need it--and by the time they do know, it's too late to turn it on.

To tell the truth, I don't really see a problem. Races that use multi-turn-arming direct-fire weapons have always had a problem with EM. The solution is to get close, stay close, use your secondaries (seekers or ESG) and wait for him to drop EM. He has to do it if he wants to shoot at you--and that's your opportunity to blast him. Indeed, a Federation Captain who doesn't expect a close-range enemy to go EM should turn in his suit.
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defurusu
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Joined: 20 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, the more I think about this change, the more I like it.

It shifts the burden of planning onto the player who wishes to truly benefit from using EM, where previously the mere threat of EM was enough to place this burden (which is a problem of anticipation really) on the opposing player.

I can't help but see this as a good thing.

But that's from the perspective of not yet having played under the new rule, so I may yet decide otherwise...
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