Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Cost of speed 32 Drones
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the intent of "codifying" the three different possible speeds for drones was an effort to put them into some kind of structure for rules purposes. Drone speed is scenario and era specific. If a few scenarios appear that are set in the late or post General War era, then drones are speed 32. The vast majority (95%+) of scenarios are in the immediate pre-War or early War period and drones are speed 24. The very few scenarios that exist in the "middle years" period use drones with speed 16.

Granted, FC is supposed to be era independent, but with the existence of the rich source material from SFB, there were bound to be cases where good scenarios could be written that didn't fit into the stated timeframe of FC. Would we rather ignore those good scenarios or include them with only minor changes?

I don't see this as a situation in which players can arbitrarily choose which speed drones to use. Use the ones for the time period of the scenario. What gamers do in the privacy of their own gamerooms is their business and they can do whatever they want. But if they want to have a scenario published or otherwise "put out there" for others to see and use, then they had better stick to a standard that has been set by ADB.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the concern is probably a little different. Most FC games, like most SFB games, are going to be "pick-up" games, not scenarios. So, with the speed 32 drone casually placed into the rules, the question will now be what is used during "pick-up" games. Generally speaking, people just use point value. There is now a rule that tells you the cost of speed 32 drones. the problem, likely, is that anyone who is a heavy drone user will see immediately that paying 8 more points for their 4 Drone-rack cruiser (this will generally reflect a 3-5% increase in the cost of the ship) is going to increase the effectiveness of their ship by far more than 3-5%.

So, the discussion is going to be about balance - something few people really understand or agree upon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jmt
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 394
Location: Plano, TX

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Rock wrote:
I think the concern is probably a little different. Most FC games, like most SFB games, are going to be "pick-up" games, not scenarios.


Actually my experience has been the opposite. Duels are common when teaching some one the rules (or when someone wants to try a new empire), but most folks I play with are more interested in the scenarios. Flying around blasting the bejeezus out of an equal point ship doesn't have the appeal to our group as the tactical problems presented by scenarios.

Now, call it projection, but I think in general there is more interest in scenarios with FC than with SFB. The drive is that SFB tournaments favor duels. In general, game systems with tournaments tend to have players play "tournament style games". In SFB, this leads itself to pickup duels.

Right now, the FC tournament system focus on small task forces, and I would expect to see more fleet-level task force skirmishes. Since this takes a little preparation, most pick up games I see are scenarios.

Player 1: Wanna play FC?
Player 2: Okay, what scenario?
Player 1: Something with a planet and lots of ships?
Player 2: Sure - how about the Organa scenerio.
Player 1: Okay - but can I fly something other than Federation?
Player 2: How about Romulans and Gorns?
Player 1: You're on; my lizards are gonna smash you.
_________________
jmt

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duels and "pick-up" games are entirely different. I have played, in FC, nothing other than "pick-up" games (or the tournament - which is effectively "pick-up"). I have, however, only played one duel.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Archduke Russell John I
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Langhorne, Pa

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
There was no hue and cry when (4G3a) was published. Now there is this sudden concern and complaint about (4G3b). They are both exactly the same type of rule. (4G3b) did not introduce multiple drone speeds; (4G3a) did. Yet it wasn't a concern until (4G3b).


Like Storyelf I was not aware of the addition of slow drones. If I had, I probably would have voiced concern.

mjwest wrote:
I will reiterate a prior point: There is no appreciable difference between you (as a Kzinti) insisting on using (4G3b) and your opponent (opposing a Kzinti) insisting on using (4G3a). You would not accept an opponent with such a position; I fail to see why your opponent should be expected to accept the reverse.


I can see a big difference between slow drones and fast drones. Most of the races in play up to now use drones in some capacity, i.e. Feds, Klingons, Kzinti and Orions. Therefore, if there is going to be a change in the drones used, it will effect both players. Nobody is going to agree on using slower weapons themselves so there is no reason to insist the other player use them. Additionally, when one player suggests using faster drones, it makes sense for the other to agree because he gets them as well.

The problem is now we are introducing more non-drone using races. Therefore it becomes less advantageous for one side to agree to use the faster drone and possibly even to insist on the slower drones.

mjwest wrote:
You can do anything you want to if both players agree to do it. If that makes it an "optional rule", then so be it. But calling any possibility an optional rule seems a tad excessive.


The difference is official support. Once it becomes a published rule it is an optional rule. The stated position of the company was no optional rules in Federation Commander. The publication of this rule is in exact contradiction to that position.

Perhaps I should ask it this way. My understanding is Federation Commander era independant. This is reflected by there being no refits. That means ships used in early war scenarios are the exact same as ships used in late war scenarios. If that is the case, why do we need drones with differing speeds.

[edit for formatting issues]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1950
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My main thing was that players always want the best possible weapons. So if Sp32 drones become available, they'll want them all the time. The (4G3a) rule is, iirc, the 'slow' drones rule. This in itself explains why nobody ever insists on using it - at least no Kzinti player!

Now that Sp32 drones are available, players will probably want to use them all the time - you only have to look at some of the other posts in these forums to see players saying 'I'd only take the XX-CA, not the XX-NCA 'cos it's better'. It seems that some players are not interested in the finesse side of things, trying out new ships or slow weapons, for example, but just want to use the best weapons and ships.

Then again, I have just driven my car 450 miles from Scotland to Devon, in slow motorway [freeway] traffic composed of complete morons interested more in rubbernecking suspected accident sites than in making road progress, so I'm not in the best of moods as things stand. Therefore please don't take anything I say seriously! Cool

For myself, I will insist that drones are Sp24 unless the scenario dictates it, whether I'm Kzinti, Klingon, Fed or their opponents, thus solving the problem for my part. Drones are menacing enough as it is without them travelling at the same speed as a plasma torp!
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are only the best because of their cost. If the rule said 5 points, in stead of 0.5 points, no one would use them. Correspondingly, if the rule for slow drones said -5 points per drone, all Kzintis would want them.

Assuming you agree with that, then it's really only a matter of finding the right balance - 0.5 just is not it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The speed of drones used in a scenario is not an "optional rule." There are no optional rules in FC. The speed of the drones is scenario specific, as I stated earlier.

In FC, "era independent" simply means that all the originally envisioned situations were to be late pre-war and early to mid GW. If someone wrote, or writes, interesting scenarios for the Middle Years period or the late GW period, then the drone speeds must be adjusted accordingly.

How can speed 32 drones be optional for a pre-war scenario? They don't exist for that time period. They are scenario dependent.

I have read that certain people have no interest in the Middle Years period because they think players only want to use the best ships with the most advanced weapons. Granted, if better, newer ships can go up against older, non-refitted ships, who wouldn't want to use the better ships? But if all the ships in those scenarios are "retro-fitted" for that time period (according to what they have in their SFB counterparts), its a fair shake for all sides. The same arguments hold.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Steve Cole
Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 3051

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, it's not an optional rule. It's a scenario rule.

A Kzinti may "insist" on using them, but his opponent simply says "no" and that's the end of that.

The rule doesn't create "pushy Kzintis" who were already trying to talk their opponents into agreeing to speed 32 drones a year ago. The rule gives them no more moral authority for "insisting" than they had before, which was zero.

Now, the really funny thing is, THERE IS NO ENABLING RULE that "allows" two players to agree to use speed-32 drones. If you do, you're making up your own rules, and you could have done that before Comm-32.
_________________
The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Davec_24
Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 596
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that's a fair point. I suppose people could have used speed-32 drones by mutual agreement before any "rules" were published about them (although there would have been no official amount by which this would increase the point value, but then again arguably there still isn't as such an application of these rules would still technically be making up your own rules).

The way I'd read the "scenario rules" suggests that *all* drones in a scenario set in 2580-2585 should be "fast" drones, so you can't mix and match drone speeds, thus eliminating the arguably tedious "options" system which was present in SFB, and keeping FC streamlined. On consideration, I think the "Late Years Drones" scenario rule is fair enough, and shouldn't be detrimental to the game's simplicity and playability.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jmt
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 394
Location: Plano, TX

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Davec - it appears that the rule creates a point in time when Speed 32 drones appear. Any scenario prior to this date uses the standard (speed 24) drones while any scenario after this date uses Speed 32. Now, since this is a "scenario specific rule", one should assume that unless the scenario specifically states fast drones, that it is prior to the cut off date.

Can one can also assume that any scenario set after the date gets the fast drones automatically?

I figure that optional drones - such as 2-space, armored, and swordfish - would be part of Borders of Madness.
_________________
jmt

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
derek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 31
Location: Lucaston, Tasmania

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmt wrote:
I figure that optional drones - such as 2-space, armored, and swordfish - would be part of Borders of Madness.


G'Day

Read this Wink

What Steve Cole said elsewhere in the fighter, carrier thread wrote:
NO drone variants in FC or BOM. If you want those, go play SFB.


Cheers

Derek
_________________
"They carried sticks and wore white clothes with bells on them, to stop them creeping up on people. No one likes an unexpected Morris dancer." - Wintersmith, Terry Pratchett.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/derekfulton/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jmt
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 394
Location: Plano, TX

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Derek, for the reference.
_________________
jmt

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
jmt
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 394
Location: Plano, TX

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found the following in the Notes to Players section of scenario (8KL) Derelict regarding speed 32 drones:

Quote:
(Speed 32 drones) is an exponential factor, a ship with four drone racks increased in power by much more than a ship with one drone rack, and a battlecruiser with four drone racks gains more than a frigate with four drone racks.

_________________
jmt

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1950
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmt wrote:
I found the following in the Notes to Players section of scenario (8KL) Derelict regarding speed 32 drones:

Quote:
(Speed 32 drones) is an exponential factor, a ship with four drone racks increased in power by much more than a ship with one drone rack, and a battlecruiser with four drone racks gains more than a frigate with four drone racks.

....and then goes on tho say that, "A future product will include rules to adjust the point values of ships for this special situation".

Which is what they have done. But not realistically, in some people's opinions on this forum.....
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group