Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Tholian Web Casters: 8 Impulses is too Long
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Patrick Doyle
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 208
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:10 pm    Post subject: Tholian Web Casters: 8 Impulses is too Long Reply with quote

Cast web lasting 8 impulses is too long. Its great for the Tholians, but for anyone fighting them, not so great. Coming to this conclusion was a group effort, but I'll let others speak for themselves, except for Paul Scott, who does agree with this position. We beleive the answer to the problem is to make cast web last only 4 impulses, not 8 impulses. In SFB cast web lasts 1/2 of a turn (16 SFB Impulses), which is the equivalent of 4 FC impulses. SFB had the balance correct.

I have been playing as and against Tholians for a while for purposes of deciding whether Tholians should be restricted to limited number of web casters during Tournament play. We are finding that the number of Web Casters isn't the issue, its the amount of time that the web remains in play.

I've played three games that reinforce this belief. Once I was taught a basic initial placement tactic for the web, all have been one-sided battles.

1. Thol vs Klink, 1 WC: A tough fight to be sure, but with the ability to cancel moves, the Tholians can at least set up favorable exchanges to get the advantage. One web Caster may not be as 1-sided as the other 2 listed battles, but it is still very favorable to the Tholians. This was also my first serious attempt at the Tholians.

2. Thol (NDN, CA, PC) vs Lyran (HDN,CA,FF) - Asside from an intitial range 12 shot on turn 1 at the PC, the Lyrans did nor score any damage to the Tholians. The L-CA sustain a lot of engine damage on turn 1, the Frigate was killed. While the Th-NDN had 3 WC it never needed to use more than 2. Tholians can basically create a maze and their opponent never gets a chance to shoot if its done right.

3. Thol DPW,CPW, PC, PC vs Klingon C7, D5, D5 - Again, another 1 sided game. The Tholians sustained 1 point of leak damage from turn 1, otherwise they did not sustain so much as a shield hit after turn 1. In exchange the C7 and a D5 were wrecked when we eneded.

In all cases, it was the duration of the web that was decisive. I'm not saying that the Tholians player can't screw up, BUT once Paul taught me a basic initial placement of cast web, the games have all eneded the same way.
_________________
Once again I have proven that even in the future, your photon torpedoes are built by the lowest bidder.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bolo_MK_XL
Commander


Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 791
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other advantage the Tholians have in FC:

The damage reduction to phasers was removed, in SFB the Tholians subtracted 1 point for each hex to the furthest hex of web they were firing through ---

Combined, Tholians have quite a plus ---
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 70
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hate to sound like a jerk, but Pat have you actually played as the Tholians yourself? If no is the honest answer, then give it a go. It ain't easy street. 5 hexes of, linear web... wow that's rough. Sugesstion: Make sure you have read THOLIAN ATTACK before engaging with those suckers, so and so might be betraying your trust.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
silent bob
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

takes an impulse to actually activate too. plus you can fire if sitting in it anyway.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Patrick Doyle
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 208
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Missmatronic,

Yes I have played the Tholians myself, and I do understand the rules, all of them. I do not claim the Tholians are easy, BUT, once you understand how to play them, you should have a great advantage that exceeds the point value of your ship, making it unbalanced. And yes, if you make errors in the use of the web, you are in trouble.

There is no betrayal going on here, and frankly I do not appreciate the implication that I am lying or being lied to. I do not wish to engage in an unpleasant exchange, but you ought not to be so quick to imply someone that you don't know is lying.

Hear is addition info about the games. All is verifiable.

Game 1: I played the Tholians against Chandler Archibald and his brother Brandon in St Paul on Friday, July 18. This was a tough fight, but the exchanges favorded the Tholians who only had 1 WC.

Game 2: I played the Tholians with Mike Filsinger on my side. Opposing us was Todd Nixon and Todd Warnken. The game occurred on Sunday, August 17 in Cincinnati. On-sided battle in favor of the Tholians, with 3 WCs.

Game 3: I played the Klingons against Paul Scott who played the Tholians. The game was played online (FC Online) on Tuesday, August 19. I have the the entire transcript of this battle if you would care to see it (all 29 pages, e-mail me if you want it: patrickdoyle@juno.com)
If you are having trouble using the web, analysing this battle may help out your web tactics because Paul frankly played a nearly flawless game.

For furthur clarity, we have been playing using a fixed map of 42 hexes by 30, using squadron scale, 450 bpv per side. Basically we are playing Tournament rules (the rules anticipated for next year).


I would be interested to hear other people's results when playing as or against the Tholians.
_________________
Once again I have proven that even in the future, your photon torpedoes are built by the lowest bidder.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 70
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said : I wasn't trying to be nasty, but in my experience Tholians arent easy to master. It can be frustrating. My friend still whoops me day in and day out no matter what fleet he plays. I firmly believe that
there are only solutions, not problems. Thats just me. I do admit to prodding you in order to find out more, you did pique my curiosity. BTW have you been in San Jose Ca recently, my friend/opponent met someone about a month ago who he says was an out of town pilot?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Patrick Doyle
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 208
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, I haven't been to San Jose. Most of my flying is Midwest and East Coast.

Tholians are not easy to master, but once I was taught a little about how to place the web, suddenly web works quite well and perhaps too well. It still requires thought and practice, but you should win much more often than you lose.

The reason I bring this issue up is to see what results others have had.

Regards,
Pat
_________________
Once again I have proven that even in the future, your photon torpedoes are built by the lowest bidder.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 70
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Doyle,

You have intrigued me! Please do email me that online game stuff. I may have to bend over and let you kick me in my behind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
silent bob
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thing is to put out a 5 string full power web is quite energy consuming too to be honest. to do multiple 5 string full power webs wont leave much energy for firepower, shield boosting etc unless stationary.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 70
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious to see how effectively these Tholian tactics Doyle mentions play out. Yeah Bob, I think along the same lines as you currently. Energy is a key concern and has a lot to do with my skepticism regarding the "big bad spider web". One game , just a shootout not a scenario, I played Tholians and made a globular hide out. So I just used that as a "recup pitstop" if you will. So my opponents just said nah-ah and just avoided phaser range. Very very Dull! Good thing we had to quit because my wife was going to kill me if I didn't pack up and come home!! She was our "salvation" in this case.

I think anyone with the right stuff strategically can counter any slick rules gimmics anyone dishes out with any fleet/ship. Period. This should be the draw of this game.

True story: I myself am a Horrid tactician. Thus I have a lot of improvement to look forward too. Knock on wood!!

I know a couple of guys that beat everyone almost consistently. They're damn scary. I'd like to see one of them play against these "unbeatable" Tholian circumstances.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
TJolley
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

silent bob wrote:
thing is to put out a 5 string full power web is quite energy consuming too to be honest. to do multiple 5 string full power webs wont leave much energy for firepower, shield boosting etc unless stationary.


What you may not be considering, is that using web properly, you will be using heavy weapons less often. You will be firing through web fire-walls with lots of P-1's suffering no damage loss, and receiving no (or little) fire in return.

So your energy needs are reduced to Phasers, web , and maneuver. If you want/need heavy weapons, you will probably be taking the Photon-armed variants of the Tholians, spending turn 1 arming the photons, and then all you need is a small amount of power to hold them, leaving plenty of power left over for phasers, web, and maneuver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
silent bob
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i tend to use heavy weapons and even web fists. the webcasters themselves are used to split up enemy fleets so I can have a full 500pts of ships jump on one or 2 enemy ones worth half the cost or less.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3495
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJolley wrote:
silent bob wrote:
thing is to put out a 5 string full power web is quite energy consuming too to be honest. to do multiple 5 string full power webs wont leave much energy for firepower, shield boosting etc unless stationary.


What you may not be considering, is that using web properly, you will be using heavy weapons less often. You will be firing through web fire-walls with lots of P-1's suffering no damage loss, and receiving no (or little) fire in return.

So your energy needs are reduced to Phasers, web , and maneuver. If you want/need heavy weapons, you will probably be taking the Photon-armed variants of the Tholians, spending turn 1 arming the photons, and then all you need is a small amount of power to hold them, leaving plenty of power left over for phasers, web, and maneuver


I don't imagine you are going terribly fast, either. With only 5 hexes in a strand, you probably don't want to move very far or very fast. Especially in a duel.

Or are you zipping around after all?
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
TJolley
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
I don't imagine you are going terribly fast, either. With only 5 hexes in a strand, you probably don't want to move very far or very fast. Especially in a duel.

Or are you zipping around after all?


The web tactics Pat et all are referring to are based around squadrons of ships of 450 points total, not duels.

Duels is a whole different ball of wax.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
DNordeen
Commander


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 532

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious how your setting the web up on your cast. Is it a single strand? Or is it multiple strands that block each other?

If it's only one strand deep, then the opponent just crashes into the web and fires all his weapons out of it. If the strands are layered so another strand blocks the fire, he can't do this, but that takes a lot of power and room to set up. Not to mention that with the delayed activation, the first strand could be passed through without affect.

Lot's of questions and confusion, can you take a picture of the setup your talking about? Being able to see it would help a lot.
_________________
Speed is life; Patience is victory

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group