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HETs and Move Precedence
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missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 70
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: HETs and Move Precedence Reply with quote

I have a question as to when a HET is actually performed. I understand when a HET is payed for and declared, but is the HET performed in normal precedence order during the sub-pulse or do all units perform their HETS before the sub-pulse commences?
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4470
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See (2A5), second sentence:
Units perform High Energy Turns (2D2) during the step assigned to them (even if they are not scheduled to move).A non-moving unit is (within its category) the slowest moving unit, so a speed zero ship will HET before other ships move in the ship step.

I take it to mean that a ship executes a HET in the 2nd step of the Order of Precedence (i.e., 1-Monsters move, 2-Ships move,etc...)

So, typically when we play we:
1) move monsters (if any on the board)
2) move ships:
HET's first and in speed order - Speed 0 ships HET, speed 8 ships HET, etc.
Ships move - in speed order, based on impulse
3) PF move - n/a
4) Shuttles move
and so on.

It may not be the absolutely correct way to do it, but it works for our group and stops any arguments about when does a ship with baseline speed 16 HET on movement pulse 3?
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missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 70
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you are saying that all HETs are performed before anyone executes movement during the sub-pulse?
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missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 70
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to interperet this portion of 2D2a : "This maneuver allows the ship to turn to any new facing it wants, immediatley, regardless of its speed or turn mode."
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mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3495
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The basic idea is that HETs are performed in the normal stream of movement. The HET is done in place of a normal turn (change of facing).

In sub-pulses where the ship doesn't normally move, the HET is done when it would have moved, as if this was a sub-pulse in which it would have moved.

But the overriding idea is that HETs are done in the normal course of movement.
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the way we play it... but only because of the kinda vague wording in the rule book. I actually think the HETs should be done during movement and at the proper time.
i.e., Movement pulse 1:
there should be an opportunity for each unit to HET based on it's baseline speed: Stopped can HET - Speed 0 can HET - Speed 0+1 can HET - Speed 8 can HET - Speed 8+1 can HET - Speed 16 can HET - Speed 16+1 can HET - Speed 24 can HET - Speed 24+1 can HET and/or move - Speed 32 can HET/move.
Movement sub-pulse two:
Stopped can HET - Speed 0 can HET - Speed 0+1 can HET - Speed 8 can HET - Speed 8+1 can HET/move - Speed 16 can HET/move - Speed 16+1 can HET/move - Speed 24 can HET/move - Speed 24+1 can HET/move - Speed 32 can HET/move.

hmmm. In retrospect, that's probably the correct way. I guess we need to revisit this issue as a group and change the way we do it.
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, mjwest cross-posted with me. We have been doing it wrong and need to change he way we do it to match the example shown above.

You learn something new every day. That's my thing for today, I'm going to bed. See y'all tomorrow.
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missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on West's answer, it seems that your extended explaination seems to correlate Scout. Thank you both.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, 'dad's revised post is correct.
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Davec_24
Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We always played HETs as being sort of in place of your "normal" move for that sub-pulse (but with the option to do it in a sub-pulse where you would not normally move). I think that's pretty much what MJW and Scoutdad said. I think this makes sense, because if you had to do HETs before other "normal" movement commences in that sub-pulse (which is what I saw as the alternative, could be wrong) then you wouldn't be able to have that "surprise HET - I'm now pointing at you when you were chasing me a second ago!" factor, especially when you are both at the same speed and turn-mode and so using simultaneous written movement.
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Davec_24
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

missmatronic wrote:
I'm trying to interperet this portion of 2D2a : "This maneuver allows the ship to turn to any new facing it wants, immediatley, regardless of its speed or turn mode."


I think this part means that even if you haven't fulfilled your turn mode and even if you were not otherwise due to move on that sub-pulse (hence the reference to your speed) you can make an HET. So for example, a ship moving at speed 16 could HET in sub-pulse 1 where it couldn't do any movement by "normal" means, and a ship which has only moved 3 hexes since it last turned when its turn mode is 5 could make a HET, even though its regular turn mode is not fulfilled.

The other bit that caused a little confusion (in rule (2D2a)) was where it says "The ship's Turn mode (2C2) and Sideslip Mode (2C4) are reset to zero". Some of our players were taking this to mean that you can turn and slip again when you want to (I think it was the word "reset" that was causing this confusion), but I think what this actually means is quite the opposite - basically your HET point counts as both a turn and sideslip point and you have to re-fulfill turn and slip modes again after performing a HET.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davec, you are absolutely correct on both points.

(2D2a) means that you can HET even if you are not scheduled to move, and even if you have not fulfilled your turn mode.

"... reset to zero" means exactly that. After performing an HET, your turn mode is reset (or just flat out set) to zero. You must now move the requisite number of hexes to be able to normally turn again. Same for sideslip mode.

So, if you make an HET in a subpulse in which you do not move, then the next time you do move you must move directly forward (or use a deceleration).
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davec_24 wrote:
Some of our players were taking this to mean that you can turn and slip again when you want to

Hmm. I wonder who Wink

Basically what we [Dave and I] did was to place the 'turn point' and 'slip point' markers together in the hex of the ship that has just done its HET. That's nice and neat.

At Exeter, we just lose all our 'poker chips' - basically we collect poker chips with each movement point expended or cancelled for the turn mode, and when we have chips equalling the turn mode, we can turn. So losing the chips means that we have to start collecting them again.

My own personal opinion is that you should not reset the sideslip mode with a HET, so that this can simulate HETs that are not exact multiples of 60 degrees, in the same way that slipping is a 'turn' of less than 60 degrees. You could have turned 150 degrees with your HET, for example.

However the existing rule is simple and well established, so I'm not complaining.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
Davec_24 wrote:
Some of our players were taking this to mean that you can turn and slip again when you want to

Hmm. I wonder who Wink


Our usual...erm... "player" was one of these, yes. Actually we had a couple of people read it like this, so it probably wasn't just an excuse to be obtuse about something, maybe the way the rule is phrased actually can reasonably be taken both ways! However, if you sit and think about it, you've just turned by making an HET, so it wouldn't make much sense to say you can turn again when you like. Since both turn and sideslip modes are "reset to zero", it follows that the sideslip mode does the same as the turn mode (i.e. you have to re-fulfill it). That was how I reasoned this point to people anyway.

The poker chips thing works fine, but I barely have room for the maps on the table, and so my ship cards end up on people's laps and chair arms rather than on the table, rendering the poker chip treatment somewhat less practical. This is why I use the turn and slip point counters instead. Smile
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missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for clarifying the 2D2a issue, that always bugged me!!
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