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Range 0 fire arc coverage?
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ckessel
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Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:19 am    Post subject: Range 0 fire arc coverage? Reply with quote

Forgive me, this seems like a newb question, but I couldn't find anything in the rulebook or via a forum search that seemed definitive.

How are fire arcs handled for range-0? I understand how to determine which shield gets hit and that kind of implies the firing arcs, but then the other side of my brain said maybe all weapons arcs can hit at range-0 (the ultimate "centerline").

I've also been puzzled about anti-drones. It sounds like they only can be attempted on the impulse the drone hits, so that if you have a drone in tractor you can't use anti-drones on it in later impulses. Is this correct? If that's correct, then if at energy allocation you choose not to maintain a tractor, the rules (5D4c) say that if the drone will hit in impulse #1 "during which the ship can fire defensively", which sounds like I would get another ADD shot at that point.

So, I'm confused on when ADD can fire. It sounds like I can use ADD only on the impulse the drone hits, but the 5D4c also sounds like it'd give me another chance IF I dropped tractor at energy allocation.

Thanks,
Chris
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firing arcs will be determined in the same way as the shields are determined. As you point out, the shield facings pretty must directly imply what the weapons in arc will be. And, no, being at range 0 does not suddenly make everything in arc.

Your initial reading is correct on ADDs. ADDs only get one chance to hit an incoming drone, and it is in the impulse that the drone enters the ship's hex. That is the last chance the ADD gets to try and hit, regardless of how many times the drone is released from tractor and retractored.
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Sneaky Scot
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found it quite helpful for range-0 arc resolution to move the ships(s) to their position in the previous impulse. That way, you can "see" how the ships are approaching, and thus have a very clear idea about which weapons are in arc.
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ckessel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A somewhat related question. When firing phasers at drones in the DFF, do arcs matter for that as well? I couldn't find anything that said DFF at a drone had to honor arcs, but again, it made sense that it should matter.
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Sneaky Scot
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,

Presuming the DFF means Defensive Fire Phase, then you are correct in assuming that a weapon fired at a seeking weapon during this phase must be in arc. The seeking weapon "sticks" to the shield it impacts for resolution during defensive fire, so logicvally, the weapon must be able to fire in that direction for it to be effective. ADD has an advantage as it is a 360-degree weapon. I don't have chapter and verse in front of me at the moment as I'm at work, but I'm sure Mike West will correct anything inaccurate I have said.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't do chapter and verse, either. (I am sneaking a look during a business trip.) However, Scot is correct.

An impacted drone "sticks" to a shield, and only phasers that can fire out of that shield can fire at the impacted drone during Defensive Fire.
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USS Enterprise
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At range 0, all weapons can hit. Don't have chapter and verse either, but I remember reading it. Drones I'm not sure about, but I'm 90% you can fire any weapon.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to see someone quote chapter and verse for this. Unless I miss my guess, even in same hex combat situations - one is still restricted to firing arc limitations.
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djdood
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. I do not recall any rule that suddenly makes all weapons 360-degree at range 0.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting point that's been raised.

My first reaction was 'Of course it's the same as in the shield rules, look....it's right here.... er...' and that was it.

You see, I'm not sure there is a Chapter and Verse for this, because I don't really think it's actually stated per se anywhere. Sure, I agree with most in that there's no rule that suddenly makes all weapons 360-degree arcs. However, in my experience both in-game and on the Forum here, most if not all players use the (3C6d) rule governing 'which shield was hit' to determine also which weapons can fire.

Now, granted, that rule refers only to the shields, but it seems to be the general consensus that (3C6d) - look at the positions the ships occupied before they entered the hex - is used for weapon arcs too. It therefore looks to me to be a loophole, and no doubt this will be clarified in short order. If so, it will end up in the CRUL and thence in the Rev.5 rulebook which is due out soon.

Fwiw, there's a 2007 thread that I started where I began it with the assumption that firing arcs were determined from prior position before entering the hex - at

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=658

- and Mike West did not contradict my assumption, so I'm still assuming that the 'assumptions' are correct. Incidentally, in that thread, we are talking mainly about relative facings, and not simply just shields; this idea of 'relative facing' is I think the relevant issue here since that will determine BOTH shield facing and weapon arcs in a logical way.

But I'm glad you asked the question. Because this looks to me like an assumption that we've all had for years but it's not actually written down anywhere.

So keep asking the awkward questions and challenging our assumptions. That way lies progress Smile
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Kang
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw, Drone firing arcs are always 360 degrees. In fact it's not so much a firing arc as a launch direction.

Check out the early part of Rule (4G3) where it says that drones are launched.. 'facing in any direction that has the target in the drone's FA arc'.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We tend to assume that as above the shield that would be hit also determines firing arc.

We did, however, once have some bizarre corner case that involved ships that had remained in the same hex but changed facing. I can't remember the details, but it went something along the lines of entered hex directly ahead so he shoots me in shield 1 and I fire anything that can fire out shield 1, then via one of the turn mechanisms changed facing whilst still being in the same hex. What shield am I now showing the enemy and firing out of. Did I now get to fire the weapons that are out the side shield (which as I remember was the basic idea of why the manouver was done) or was shield 1 the facing as that was the shield on entry into the hex.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

USS Enterprise wrote:
At range 0, all weapons can hit. Don't have chapter and verse either, but I remember reading it. Drones I'm not sure about, but I'm 90% you can fire any weapon.

This is not true. Arcs do not change just because you are at range 0. Just as at any range above 0, what shield you have facing an opponet determines what weapons can fire.

The key rule is (3C6d) This defines what the ships' facings are when they are at 0 hex range. The thread that Kang references should have some interesting cases for examples. However, let's go ahead and hit on a couple ...

Simple case: Ship A is in hex 21, facing C. Ship B is in hex 32, facing A. (I am using he big hexes.) In this case, Ship A has its #1 shield facing Ship B, while Ship B has its #6 shield facing Ship A. On he next move, Ship A enters Ship B's hex by moving straight forward. To determine the shield facing in this case, rule (3C6d) says to move the last ship to move (Ship A) to its previous position, and use those shield facings. That means that Ship A still has its #1 shield facing Ship B, and Ship B still has its #6 shield facing Ship A.

As a result, Ship A may fire anything that can fire into either the LF or RF firing arcs at Ship B. Meanwhile, Ship B may fire anything that can fire into the LF or L firing arcs at Ship A.

Fairly Simple case: Ship A is in hex 21, facing D. Ship B is in hex 32, facing A. In this case, both ships have their #6 shields facing each other. Ship A turns left (no facing C) and enter's Ship B's hex. To determine the shield facing in this case, we again follow (3C6d) and move Ship A to its previous position. Note, however, that the movement occurred AFTER the turn. So, when we move Ship A back to its original hex, it is facing C, not D. So, we find that Ship A has its #1 shield facing Ship B, while Ship B has its #6 shield still facing Ship A. The weapons able to fire are then the same as the first case.

Trickier case: Ship A is in hex 21, facing C. Ship B is in hex 33, facing A. In this case, Ship A has the boundary of its #1 and #2 shields facing Ship B. Ship B has the boundary of its #6 and #1 shields facing Ship A. Both ships move forward into hex 32. To determine shield facing in this case, we follow (3C6d). Since both ships entered the hex at the same time, both ships are moved back to their previous hexes. As a result, Ship A still has its #1/#2 shield boundary facing Ship B, and Ship B still has its #6/#1 shield boundary facing Ship A.

That means that Ship A may only fire weapons that have an arc including RF, and Ship B may only fire weapons that have an arc including LF. Also note that they still have the shield boundaries facing each other, so once fire is made, rule (3C6c) must be used to determine which shield was actually hit.
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djdood
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mike.

I printed that post and added it to my copy of the CRUL. This comes up in my group and it will help to have this answer and examples.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what I was looking for. I knew the way it was supposed to work, I just couldn't remember the reference.

Never again. This one is now marked and saved.
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