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Repairing Destroyed Plasma
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j2klbs
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Joined: 08 Oct 2008
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:12 pm    Post subject: Repairing Destroyed Plasma Reply with quote

I'm sorry if this has previously been answered. I tried looking and didn't find my answer.

If a plasma ship has it's plasma launcher destroyed, couldn't it just fix it in the repair phase and thereby suffer no adverse impact of having had it destroyed?

Rule 4J3d "Disabled Launch" states that "disabling a plasma torpedo launcher acutally disables the arming system, not the heavily-armored chamber in which the plasma is created". It further states that "At the start of the next turn, it would be impossible to add 'holding energy' so the torpedo would be lost."

It seems to me that it would be more clear if "Unless repaired" was added to this last sentence.

Is this really the intention of the rules? If so, that seems to me to be a really big departure from SFB making plasma torps much more survivable.

Thanks!
Jason
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Davec_24
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 596
Location: England

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I would approach this is that you probably can't simply repair the launcher and then pay the holding cost in the next turn (otherwise for a larger ship which is able to repair a launcher in a single turn, there would be little point in being able to diable the tube). Rule (4J3d) states that "If a fully-armed torpedo is in a plasma launcher and that launcher is disabled, the torpedo can still be launched any time before the end of the turn." In terms of how the rules work, I would say this means that if you haven't fired the torpedo by the end of the turn, it is lost.

In terms of the "why", while holding energy is indeed paid at the start of the turn (and so if the tube was repaired it could pay holding energy at the start of the next turn), I think this application of holding energy at the start of the turn would in real time represent a continuous supply of energy to the torpedo throughout the turn, like a "trickle charge" sort of idea. This would mean that in the space of time in which the arming mechanism is disabled, no power could be applied to the torpedo in this way. That would mean that the torpedo would not survive long enough for the repairs on the arming mechanism to be conducted to allow the holding to continue.

I think disabled launch has been allowed "to the end of the turn" rather than for a set number of impulses after disabling for simplicity. In SFB this probably wouldn't have been an issue, as (and I could be wrong, it's ages since I played SFB) I don't think you could fully repair a torpedo tube at the end of the turn in which it was destroyed such that you could use it again in the next turn. Again, I think the repair rules are done this way in FC for simplicity, but this can and does result in some differences from SFB.
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j2klbs
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Joined: 08 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that your interpretation is the logical one, and the one that is likely in the spirit of the game. However, my strict interpretation of the base rules (unless I am missing some extra rule in a communique, etc.) is that one could repair the plasma torp as if nothing happened.

Thoughts?
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Davec_24
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I would have said the bit where it says "the torpedo can still be launched any time before the end of the turn" implies that after that, the torpedo is lost. However, it does not explicitly state that this is the case, and perhaps this needs to be stated more specifically (assuming that this is in fact the case, I could of course be totally wrong).
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terryoc
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Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1371

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you can just repair it and pay the holding cost. This is a recognised tactic IIRC, I don't think it's been outlawed. I think it's just one of those weird things that don't matter enough to change.
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asguard101
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Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 160
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How exactly would you repair a destroyed tube, while it was still armed? I know I wouldn't want to be that poor engineer crawling in there to repairs the holes.
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4451
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asguard101 wrote:
How exactly would you repair a destroyed tube, while it was still armed? I know I wouldn't want to be that poor engineer crawling in there to repairs the holes.


I bet this guy could do it!!! Shocked
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junior
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the rulebook, the torpedo itself is held in a massively armored and shielded chamber. What's disabled by a Torpedo hit is the energy feed for the torpedo. So repairing the torpedo box doesn't require actually getting close to the ball of plasma.
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missmatronic
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Joined: 15 Aug 2008
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Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a real good one J2, question that is. As a frequent Gorn player, I'd like a definite answer on this one.
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Dal Downing
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Joined: 06 May 2008
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Location: Western Wisconsin

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never really thought about it. I always played once a Weapon was Destroyed be it a Photon, Hellbore, Drone whatever it was gone and its energy stored was "poof, vanished, gone" So even if you repaired a Photon Launcher on the First turn of arming it still was replaried empty and this is beared out but rule 5G5 covering Drone Rack Repairs.

Now Plasma's were giving a exception in 4J3D that states they can be launched untill the end of the turn. Where the confusion is coming up is the little line of Fluff that was added with the () at the end of that Paragraph. But the Last line says "This includes Plasma F's" Does this not literaly mean if you are holding a Plasma F in a Stasis Mount that is destroyed you then have until the end of the trun to use or lose it even if you repair the launcher?

I think the intent of the rule is very clear when you plasma Torpedo Launcher is Destroyed your Plasma Warhead is either fired or discharged by the end of your current turn. What probably happens is at the point the Power Junction is shot out the Warhead itself Arms and start some kind of Chain Reaction inside the Collapsing Magnetic Bottle holding the Plasma. Even if you reestablish the power feed the damage so to speak has been done. The Warhead is now Hot and already burning so you might as well kick it, before it misfires in your Lauch Tube.

But I am sure MJW or SVC will tell us for sure shortly what happens. Not nessecarily how it happens just what happens.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can do this whole thing of repairing a tube and then using it the next turn without losing the plasma that was in it, then could a plasma tube that is not fully armed (for example one which has just paid for its second turn of arming) not be repaired and the arming completed in the next turn by the same method? I could have just missed something while looking at the rules, but as far as I can see the rules never make specific mention of losing the energy in the tube if it is destroyed before the torpedo is fully loaded. So, if you repaired the tube at the end of the turn and were allowed to use this tube to pay the holding cost of an armed torpedo which was in the tube when it was disabled, why could you not arm a partly completed torpedo by the same method?

I think like you say that the intent of the rule is that you shouldn't be able to repair a plasma torpedo and retain the torpedo in the tube. Generally speaking, if the rules don't say you can do it, then you can't (rather than the other way around). Come to think of it, do the rules ever state that you couldn't repair a photon tube which was disabled while partly or fully armed and then repair it at the end of the turn to continue arming or holding them in a similar manner to these plasmas? Feel free to point out where it says you can't, I'm just curious. Wink
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Paul Grogan
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Joined: 20 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've ruled that if a photon tube gets damaged whilst it was pre-loaded, or even loaded, the torpedo in there is lost and once repaired, you have to start over again.

I'm also tempted to rule the same for plasma weapons until something is made clear officially with proper errata and appearing in a communique. Smile
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Davec_24
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul Grogan wrote:
I've ruled that if a photon tube gets damaged whilst it was pre-loaded, or even loaded, the torpedo in there is lost and once repaired, you have to start over again.

I'm also tempted to rule the same for plasma weapons until something is made clear officially with proper errata and appearing in a communique. Smile


To be honest this makes sense to me, and is how I have always played it (with the exception as stated in the rules that you can fire a fully armed plasma from a disabled plasma launcher until the end of the turn). Until this topic actually came up, it had never occured to me that this section of the rules is ambiguous - well as I said earlier, it says you can still fire it "until the end of the turn", which to myself would imply that after that point (and before you can pay holding energy to it as this is done after the end of that turn), the torpedo lost. To be fair, this is never explicitly stated in the rulebook and is another case where it is quite possible - and reasonable - for two people to read same set of rules very differently.

It would be interesting to see the "official rules" take on this one, since both points of view have a visible argument to support them.
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asguard101
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Joined: 20 Jul 2008
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Location: Florida

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I remember correctly, a drone rack that is destroyed and then repaired, requires a reload before it can be used. It stands to reason, that if the drones are that way, then any weapon should be worked that way. Also, the rules state that the plasma must be used by the end of the tunr or it is lost, when the plasma is hit. Since the repair phase is after that last fire phase, then is could be assumed that the last chance to fire it has occured, and the energy is lost.
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 639

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

End of the turn is End of the turn, not last offensive fire phase. Until this rule is changed at this point in time the rules allow it, and honestly I don't see the problem. (There is a vast difference between Plasma and other heavy weapons).

If this is unintended then a simple fix such as asguard mentioned would be in order "must be fired by the last Offensive fire phase of the turn", Otherwise this is an intended tactic.

Why all the hate for plasma in this thread, you guys having a hard time with it?
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