Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Upgrading Plasma Torpedoes 4J2c
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Patrick Doyle
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 201
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Upgrading Plasma Torpedoes 4J2c Reply with quote

Rule 4J2c covers upgrading plasma torpedoes.

"Plasma torpedoes in the tube and ready to launch can be upgraded at the instant of launch (or firing as bolts) or during the Energy Allocation Phase of a subsequent "holding" turn. This cannot exceed the strength of the firing tube.

Here is my question. Can I upgrade my torpedo during the Offensive Fire Phase or the Launch Phase even if I do not fire it or launch it?

The rule does not seem to allow for this, though it also does not seem to make sense that you cannot upgrade the torpedo. It would also make life harder for Plasma shooters, and their lives are pretty hard as it is. (at least in my experience playing on a tournament [42x30] map).

Example: It is the offensive fire phase. I expect to take a lot of damage (but not enough to be destroyed). It is possible I will lose an S-launcher which is currently only power to the G-torp level to save power. I don't want to bolt the torp. I need to add power now, before I take damage, so that I can launch it as an S-torp in the launch phase.

Another example: I have an S-launcher powered with a G-torp. Expect to take some damage 2 impulses from now, so I would like to upgrade my torp now while I am a safe distance. Can I do it without launching it?
_________________
Once again I have proven that even in the future, your photon torpedoes are built by the lowest bidder.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 70
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat, I don't think its much to ask for but I don't think you can. Here's why, as you know you can add energy (upgrade) a Photon or disruptor at the firing time of firing, but only Photons can be overloaded at the end of the Turn which I believe would also be the time plasma could be upgraded if not done at the time of firing. It seems that concession to photon loading would be exclusive to photons alone. It seems that Photons were expressley given this option for a reason and I think we know why.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4463
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:45 am    Post subject: Re: Upgrading Plasma Torpedoes 4J2c Reply with quote

Quote:
Rule (4J2c) "Plasma torpedoes in the tube and ready to launch can be upgraded at the instant of launch (or firing as bolts) or during the Energy Allocation Phase of a subsequent "holding" turn. This cannot exceed the strength of the firing tube."


Patrick, I don't think you can do this. As I read the rule - it can only be upgraded during the EA phase, which this clearly isn't...

or, at the moment of launch (or when fired as a bolt). Now if you want to bolt it, then yes you could upgrade it during Offensive Fire... if a regualr launch is intended, then it has to be done at the launch seeking weapons stage, not Offensive Fire.

I can certainly see why you'd want to have the "Offensive Fire" option - I just don't think that was what was intended, nor it is what is allowed under the rules.

That's my two quatloos worth - YMMV.
_________________


Scoutdad's minis photos here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3478
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'dad and 'tronic are correct. You may only upgrade a plasma torpedo at those two proscribed times: energy allocation or point of fire/launch. (Ok, I guess that is actually three specific times. But the point holds.)
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Patrick Doyle
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 201
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on how the rule is written I agree with your interpretation.

However, to use Vulcan Logic, it does not seem logical that you cannot add power to plasma torpedoes during these phases without firing them. It seems that if power can be added when you fire, then you should be able to add power and not fire/launch it. Unless, of course, there is a engineering reason why the ship's plasma launchers do not allow this.

I think if this is the case then tactically you are probably always better off to power up your torps to S-torp level to ensure that a lucky hit doesn't completely wreck your game. At least ships like the WE can prevent damage to its R-torp with frame. Saving that one point of power (holding power during energy allocation) by arming plasma to the G-torp level seems very risky unless you are certain not to take any damage. But if you are not in danger of engaing in combat, you'll have excess power anyway so it won't matter.
_________________
Once again I have proven that even in the future, your photon torpedoes are built by the lowest bidder.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3478
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is just how it works in FC.

Look at the one turn arming weapons. You can only apply energy to the weapon at the instant of fire. You cannot pre-allocate the energy.

Same for overload energy on two turn arming weapons. In that case, overload energy is only added at the instant of fire. Except the photon. It has more options because it involves overload energy over multiple turns, instead of just on the last turn. But even with the photon, you can only add overload energy during energy allocation, the end of the turn, or the instant of fire.

Granted, pre-allocating energy doesn't really help with any weapon other than plasma torpedoes. But, the structure of arming weapons still applies to plasma torpedoes.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OGREAI
Ensign


Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 19
Location: Jacksonville, FL

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I entirely agree with MJW as to how the rules are written, I want to add my support to the question raised by Patrick Doyle.

There is a subtle, but significant, difference here that no one has mentioned (Though I think MJW was intimating it). Of all the multi-turn arming weapon systems, only plasma torpedoes are seeking weapons. All the other muti-turn, heavy weapons are "direct firing" weapons used in a simultaneous Offensive Fire Phase. They get the "last chance" to fire with a "me too" declaration, thus "adding energy" right before their possible destruction. This is not the case with a conventionally fired plasma torpedo.

The Federation Commander game mechanics even make an exception to the damage of a plasma torpedo system (rule 4J3d) to handle a perceived game imbalance. Drone systems are not protected from damage before launch like a plasma torpedo. The question becomes, "why is this?"

In my opinion, we have a seperation of the Offensive Fire Phase from the Launch Phase because of how SVC wanted the plasma torpedoes to work with cloaking systems in the game. Current game mechanics simulate well what can be seen in video during the television series. A Romulan ship decloaks and fires almost immediately a plasma torpedo. The seperation of "direct fire weapons" from "seeking weapons" in the game mechanics can add unintended limitations and inconsistancies, in my opinion. We have recently been around this as to how these (cloak and plasma fire) worked with Evasive Manuevering also.

It is not my place, nor my opinion, to change the general game mechanics, but I think Patrick's thoughts on allowing plasma torpedoes to "add energy" during an Offensive Fire Phase when they are not about to be fired as a plasma bolt does deserve some thought. If it is decided to not allow plasma systems to do this, then I agree with Patrick again, that "short loading" a plasma torpedo can be a bad tactical choice.

OGRE AI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1950
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if there's a subtle reason why upgrading a plasma torp is not allowed except at the points already discussed.

Say I have a completed plas-G in the tube at the end of the turn. In the EA phase of the next turn, I pay my holding cost for that torpedo.

Then, at some unspecified point in the first impulse, I add power to the torp to convert it to a plas-S, but without firing it.

I have therefore effectively held an S-torp for the cost of a G, but without firing it. I do wonder if SVC has included the specified upgrading points for a plasma torp for that very reason.

Pat's points, and OGREAI's points too, about upgrading a torp in anticipation of imminent damage, can be accommodated with a simple compromise. Here it is; let's hear what you all think:

What we could say is that a player CAN upgrade a plasma torp during a direct-fire phase [after all, you can if you're bolting it!!], but then if that torp is NOT bolted then that it MUST be launched [as a seeking weapon, of course] in the launch phase of that same impulse. A suitable 'colour excuse' for this 'compulsory launch' could involve the 'stability' of the torpedo, or similar Smile
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Bolo_MK_XL
Commander


Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 785
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since downloading option allows for using less holding energy --
If theres enough fuss is made heres some choices :
1) Deal with rules as written ---
2) Raise holding energy to that of launcher size (no matter what size torpedo is being held) ---
3) Do away with allowing downloading --

As they say, watch what you wish for you may get it (change to rules) ---
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 639

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To raise another question, during EA say i have a plasma G in the tube and I want to upgrade it to an S do I have to pay 2 points, one for holding the G and one to upgrade, or do I pay three points two for holding the S and one for the Upgrade, or do can I just pay one point total for both the upgrade and holding (in other words can you get the holding for free if you upgrade)? Thanks

Saved
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4463
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savedfromwhat wrote:
To raise another question, during EA say i have a plasma G in the tube and I want to upgrade it to an S do I have to pay 2 points, one for holding the G and one to upgrade, or do I pay three points two for holding the S and one for the Upgrade, or do can I just pay one point total for both the upgrade and holding (in other words can you get the holding for free if you upgrade)? Thanks

Saved

2 points.
1 to hold the currently loaded "G" and an additional point to upload to a "S" torpedo.
_________________


Scoutdad's minis photos here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Patrick Doyle
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 201
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please understand, I am not seeking a rules change. I just wanted to know for tactical reasons so that I can make appropriate recomendations in future tactics articles.

As far as the fact that you can't add power during the Fire or launch phase, as I said, there could be engineering reasons for it. We can assume that the design of the weapon for some reason does not allow power to be added without a launch.

To give an example of a real life thing that doesn't seemto make sense from a "gamer" point of view, lets look at the Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate. It has (or had until they were removed) 1 missile launcher. It can fire the SM1 anti-air missile, and the Harpoon anti-ship missile. If it loaded an SM1 missile, but then the threat changes and the SM1 is not needed, it can unload the missile back into its magazine quickly. If it has a Harpoon missile on the rail, but then suddenly an air threat pops up it will have to eject the missile overboard because the Harpoon can not be immediately put back in the magazine like the SM1. The point is if I were making a game, and said you can unload an SM1, but not a Harpoon (and by the way, you have to toss it overboard), it might seem to be an arbitrary rule that does not make sense, yet the reason is based on the engineering of the system. The Harpoon can be retrieved, but it takes much longer that the SM1, time you may niot have in combat.
_________________
Once again I have proven that even in the future, your photon torpedoes are built by the lowest bidder.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3478
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a perfect explanation for *why*. That is just how the game mechanics work overall. My techno-babble-foo just isn't that great. But I can give it a try ...

Let see ...

Energy Allocation represents the planned, scheduled application of energy into a weapon system. Since it is planned, it provides a greater degree of flexibility around its application, and greater stability around whatever is receiving the power. When power is added during the point of fire, it is unplanned and unscheduled. Consequently, whatever is receiving the energy is destabilized by the application of energy and must be used immediately.

Does that work? Cool
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 70
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that if you don't overload or upgrade heavy weapons that have that option during Offensive Fire then you have to wait til the next EA. When Photon torpedos are made an exception by allowing an additional phase at the end of the turn, that is done so to set them aside from other heavy weapons.

Pat, I agree you're not looking for loopholes. I also think that if these rules of imaginary physics were consistent that there should be every reason to do what you're thinking. But this is a question of turn structure. And it seems that on the spot overloading is prohibited to a weapon you will actually fire or launch at that moment. Otherwise, if it were allowed on plasma then it would occur during end of turn Photon overloading.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Steve Cole
Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 3052

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given what happens whenever we make any change, no matter how trivial or how well-intentioned or how desperately needed, I don't see any reason to change this one. As for "why" the only answer is "it works that way" and if it doesn't seem logical to you then obviously you don't have all of the info (and I don't either).
_________________
The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group