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Multiship Declaration of Fire
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j2klbs
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Joined: 08 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: Multiship Declaration of Fire Reply with quote

My understanding is that all firing is considered simultaneous in the Offensive fire stage and that ships can "me-too" fire. Furthermore, all weapons are resolved from one weapon before moving to the next.

So just to clarify in fleet battles, is the following sequence correct:

Scenario: Player A has two ships (A-1 and A-2) and player B has two ships (B-1 and B-2).

Player A announces that A-1 is firing at B-1. He announces and then resolves all weapons that will fire.

Player B now has the option to response fire from either ship (including weapons that were destroyed this phase) or not fire.

If player B did not fire and player A chooses no additional fire, the phase is over.

If either player A or player B chooses an additional ship to fire, all of that ship's weapons are declared and resolved. The other player can then "me-too" fire.

In all cases, when firing, ships can fire weapons that were destroyed that phase. The phase ends when both players "pass".

Is that the sequence of events?

Thanks so much!
Jason
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will have to a bigger rules dive, but in general I divide up the weapons declaration from the weapons resolution. So, weapons fire for all ships is declared "simultaneously" use the "me-too" mechanism. Once all weapons fire has been declared, weapons fire is resolved one ship at a time.

Note that order of resolution can matter. So be sure to be deliberate on the order you choose. For instance, if you have one ship firing two Ph-1, and another ship firing four photons and two Ph-1s, all at the same shield on the enemy ship, you probably want to fire the big blast first.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
I will have to a bigger rules dive, but in general I divide up the weapons declaration from the weapons resolution. So, weapons fire for all ships is declared "simultaneously" use the "me-too" mechanism. Once all weapons fire has been declared, weapons fire is resolved one ship at a time.


This is also how I have always played it. However, after a quick search through the rulebook I can't find anything that specifically says you can't declare return fire after the enemy's fire has hit you and damage has been resolved. There is a bit that says fire is simultaneous and so a weapon knocked out in the same impulse can still fire, but that doesn't really specify whether you can return the fire once you know that weapon is destroyed, or whether the rule just means that because the damage happens at the same time, a weapon which as declared fire will get the shot off before it becomes destroyed (although it probably implies that it works this way - this is subjective though). I always took this to be the latter, as it seems to make sense to me.
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j2klbs
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback!

I was trying to find the exact rules on this but was having some difficulty. This topic may make for a good Communique article on how it is supposed to work - i.e. whether declarations must be made before damage is dealt or not.

Cheers!
~Jason
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junior
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davec_24 wrote:
This is also how I have always played it. However, after a quick search through the rulebook I can't find anything that specifically says you can't declare return fire after the enemy's fire has hit you and damage has been resolved.



The issue of how fire declaration works has been argued over and hashed out specifically because the rules apparently left enough leeway for different people to come up with different ideas about how it works. However, everything has been made clear through at least a couple of examples that were provided by ADB. I believe one of them (the final one) is found in the rules for one of the expansions that was released, although I can't remember which one off the top of my head (Line of Battle?).
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't got Line of Battle, so I don't know about that one. Are there any examples that clarify this in the rulebook itself, or do you know if the others are in Communique, etc.? What's your take on the matter, junior?
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junior
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davec_24 wrote:
I haven't got Line of Battle, so I don't know about that one. Are there any examples that clarify this in the rulebook itself, or do you know if the others are in Communique, etc.? What's your take on the matter, junior?


Everyone figures out what they're going to fire through the 'me too' process. You spend the energy as you announce the fire. Once everyone has passed with no one declaring new fire, you can't declare anything further and the die rolls start.

As I said, this has been hashed out and completely resolved. Even if the rulebook doesn't make it explicitly clear (and I'm pretty sure that there's at least one section in there that at the very least implies that it works this way), it's the way that it works.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
As I said, this has been hashed out and completely resolved. Even if the rulebook doesn't make it explicitly clear (and I'm pretty sure that there's at least one section in there that at the very least implies that it works this way), it's the way that it works.


Well, like I said this is how I've always done it and so I agree with you on that. Though I can see why other people might not get that that is how it's meant to work first time from how it is written in the rulebook.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like another excellent submission for the CRUL.

*sigh*

Guess I will get working on that ...
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't have the specific rule available, but all declarations have to be made before the first die is rolled ---
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
Don't have the specific rule available, but all declarations have to be made before the first die is rolled ---


I'm pretty sure that you're right, though it'd be nice to see where it actually says that (or to see it in the CRUL would do the job). I myself have no problem with this, but you know how these things are - you sometimes get a player who says "so where does it say that I *can't*? That must mean I can"...
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i went through the rule book looking for this, has to be said it really doesn't say how it works. Like most others I have always done it as declare everything, then resolve everything. But the rules don't actually say that at all. In fact to an extent there is probably a stronger case for it being declare and resolve each ship before moving to the next one, that is one thing it does actually say, resolve each ship before moving to the next. It probably needed something to make it clear that 'declare' and 'resolve' are seperate parts of the offensive fire phase which is what I was expecting to see.

If any one asks where it says declare all then resolve then you are wasting your time looking in the rule book. I couldn't find anything in the expansions I have either, though I am missing briefing 1 and line of battle.

I hope it is declare all followed by resolve all, otherwise you can wait to see what weapons you lose and then declare shooting just those weapons as a 'me to' reaction, and wait to get closer with the rest of the weapons.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is indeed intended to be:
Declare all fire from ALL ships intending to fire during the impulse in question... including "me too" fire before any dice are rolled

then resolve all the damage, from all ships...

But, after searching through the copy of the FC Reference rulebook I have here at work - I can't find anyplace where this is explicitly spelled out.
This is definitely one for hte CRUL and should be considered for inclusion in the "Rulebook ver 5.0".
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have kicked this up. I hope to get an answer after Steve finishes with Captain's Log and Communique.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that was quick! Very Happy

All ships must declare fire prior to rolling any dice. If it is not done this way, order of declaration becomes absolutely critical, and the whole "me-too" thing is severely hamstrung.

So, in the original example, all four ships would declare their fire (in what could be successive rounds of me-toos) first. Once all fire has been declared, damage is resolved one ship at a time.

Yes, this means we will be adding a note to the CRUL. Actually, since this is so important, I am going to try to get two notes, one for (1E2d) and one for (3A1).
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