Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Vudar Rules Suggestions/Comments

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
junior
Captain


Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:17 pm    Post subject: Vudar Rules Suggestions/Comments Reply with quote

A suggestion for the next version of the Vudar Ion Cannon rules -


As I was going through the rules, I noticed that there was nowhere in the rules that specifically stated how much damage a 'normal' shot from the Ion Cannon does. The numbers for the Proximity and Overload shots are explicitly stated, but I didn't see anything that said, "A normal shot from the Ion Cannon does 6 points of damage."

The actual number is found in the example (6 points), and a back-handed reference to it is made a paragraph or two just before the example, but I couldn't find an explicit rule stating the amount of damage done.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3480
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The weapon chart has a typo, but it is on the chart.

A normal load does 6 points of damage (not 2-6).
A prox load does 3 points of damage (not 2-3).
An overload does 12 points of damage (as shown).

The damage rating is in the chart, it is just obscured by the "2-" in front of it.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
masteroftroy
Ensign


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 4
Location: Beaumont, CA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the clarification....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pneumonic81
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 275
Location: Austin TX

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is more of a comment then anything else really. This thread says rule suggestions and comments, so here we go:

Im looking at the Photon Torpeado and seeing that after I have overloaded it, its 2 points to hold. Thats it, and that lets my fed increase speed enough to catch my opponent (after a couple rounds). In order to fire those overloads I will expend 8 points and no more.

As I examine the Vudar I am finding that If I want to take advantage of the weapon, I should fire it in overload mode. However according to the rules I will need to use 12 points of power that turn (in a 150 point ship) on Ion Cannons alone in order to pull that off. I think that, while I havent played it yet, I will be unable to keep up speed and still fire these as overloads like the Photons.

Of course these are NOT Photons and I realize that. I would like to go thru a allocation though, to illustrate what I am getting at.

Fed NCA Allocation: (how I usually play)
38 power
-8 for overloads
-24 for movment (to catch the target)
6 points left for phasers, defenses, and accelerations.

Vudar CA Allocation
40 points of power
-4 for holding
-24 for movement
-8 reserved for overloading Ions if i can get to range 8.
4 points left for phasers, defenses, accelerations.

I am guessing that I may end up dipping into my reserved power for my Ions to accelerate and so on. Whats the payoff on Ions? Not all ships have to be the same of course. the Ion hits for a max of 12, while the photon hits for a max of 16. I am not seeing the payoff here though. more power for less damage is what it looks like to me.

To break it down further, 2 points spent on the firing turn for Ions yield 6 points of damage standard. 2 points spent on the firing turn for Photons yield 8 points. This is acceptable as Ions hit slightly more often.

2 + 2 points spent on the firing turn yeild 12 points of overload damage, which is identical to the Photon and also a good deal. This is the best situation for the Ions.

However we get into the later turns while closing or whatever, and it goes something like 1 + 2 for 12 point overload for Ions, and 2 for a 16 point overload for photons. (assuming u get them fully overloaded, I usually do). or worst case 2 for a 12 point overload Photon. This is where the Ions start to look like a costly weapon. It doesnt seem like much but that 1 point per tube can add up.

In Conclusion: I beleive the Photon is a more effecient weapon to do damage with. It is only slightly less accurate but does more damage in either standard or overload modes and for alot less power in most cases.
_________________
http://www.rickknox3d.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1845

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As I examine the Vudar I am finding that If I want to take advantage of the weapon, I should fire it in overload mode.


Why? As with all overloadable weapons they do more damage when overloaded, but that is not necessarily the same as taking advantage of the weapon.

Quote:

However according to the rules I will need to use 12 points of power that turn (in a 150 point ship) on Ion Cannons alone in order to pull that off. I think that, while I havent played it yet, I will be unable to keep up speed and still fire these as overloads like the Photons.


If you finished arming the previous turn then yes you will pay 1 pt for holding and 2 pts for overload. With 4 tubes thats 12 pts. The heavy cruiser you refer to will still be able to do speed 24 and 4 point of power over + batteries. Not sure whether that is good enough for what you are thinking of

Quote:

Of course these are NOT Photons and I realize that. I would like to go thru a allocation though, to illustrate what I am getting at.

Fed NCA Allocation: (how I usually play)
38 power
-8 for overloads
-24 for movment (to catch the target)
6 points left for phasers, defenses, and accelerations.

Vudar CA Allocation
40 points of power
-4 for holding
-24 for movement
-8 reserved for overloading Ions if i can get to range 8.
4 points left for phasers, defenses, accelerations.


I'd have thought the fed CA would be fairer comparison, at least on points, even if not due the 'new' designation. (do the Vudar have Nxx type ships as well?). A fed CA who has overloaded previoulsy will be paying 8 pts to hold leaving 28 power left, or 4pts + batteries after speed 24. Exactly the same as the Vudar, but even that skips the fact that the Fed had to find all that extra overload power on the previous turn whilst the Vudar didn't.

The NCA has 2 extra power on the turn you are talking about, but is that worth the extra power he will have given up on the earlier turn? On the turn before, the Vudar paid 8 power to finish arming leaving 32 power, whereas the (N)CA paid 8 to arm + 8-16 to overload leaving at best 22 power or as little as 14. Given the opponent ought to be looking to prevent the overload shot coming up, you could well be in need of a lot more than 2 extra power to get him back into overload range.

Quote:

I am guessing that I may end up dipping into my reserved power for my Ions to accelerate and so on. Whats the payoff on Ions? Not all ships have to be the same of course. the Ion hits for a max of 12, while the photon hits for a max of 16. I am not seeing the payoff here though. more power for less damage is what it looks like to me.

To break it down further, 2 points spent on the firing turn for Ions yield 6 points of damage standard. 2 points spent on the firing turn for Photons yield 8 points. This is acceptable as Ions hit slightly more often.

2 + 2 points spent on the firing turn yeild 12 points of overload damage, which is identical to the Photon and also a good deal. This is the best situation for the Ions.

However we get into the later turns while closing or whatever, and it goes something like 1 + 2 for 12 point overload for Ions, and 2 for a 16 point overload for photons. (assuming u get them fully overloaded, I usually do). or worst case 2 for a 12 point overload Photon. This is where the Ions start to look like a costly weapon. It doesnt seem like much but that 1 point per tube can add up.

In Conclusion: I beleive the Photon is a more effecient weapon to do damage with. It is only slightly less accurate but does more damage in either standard or overload modes and for alot less power in most cases.



You seem to be getting tunnel vision with your overloads.

First, I'm confused by your 2 power for a 16 overload on the photon, I think you mean 4 for 16, and 2 for 12. If you do mean 2 for 16 then that means you have conveniently forgotten all the extra power you needed the previous turn to get the first 2 overload power done, which the Vudar would have used to gain position or pump out phaser fire etc.

However, there is more to it than potential damage, photons are nice at very close range, but at range 5 the Ion cannon overloads are likely to do more damage than 16 pt photons, the photons most likely result is 32 damage from 4 photons, whereas the 4 ions most likely result is 36. So at that range you can expect to do more damage for less power. At range 6-8 things are little more even, the fed is stil expecting 32 damage, the Vudar is 35% for 24 and 33% for 36. Remember that is still with the Fed going for full overload. At 12 pt overload (and similar power used) the photon is worse off at all ranges past 2! once you start accounting for probability of hitting.

However, like I say, look beyond simple overload for possible adbvantage. Where the Ion cannon shines in comparison to the photon is range 13+. At least until photons get proximity, the Ion cannon is vastly superior in damage/energy, and damage/volley compared to the photon at ranges 13+ (13-15 being the sweet spot). If you can maintain range and just dip into that 13-15 bracket to fire then pull out again you have a major advantage over the Fed ship. That may well be difficult, but if you are comparing weapon advantage then that is what you are looking at.

The final place where Ion beats the photon is when facing to hit modifiers, be it EM, Orion stealth etc. Photons suck hard against to hit modifiers, whereas Ions, with their 2 dice to hit roll, gain a significant relative advantage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pneumonic81
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 275
Location: Austin TX

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I can see I confused you. I need to explain first how I play Feds.

On turn 1 I put 6 points per tube into the photons and fully overload them. I do this because photons, if they hit, will do devestating damage. people willd o thier best to avoid me, but will often end up running if i can maintain 24. I will chase them to the edge of the map, corner them, and then fire. This works fairly well.

With this setup I end up paying a mere 2 points to fire a 16 point torpeado on turn 2. So thats where my allocations came from Storyelf. I am figuring on firing turn 2, during a point where I am ONLY paying for holding.

The Ions do work better in situations where modifiers are present however. I am not suggesting they are broken, only that they dont seem to have the damage per point of power that photons have most of the time. They can be more expensive to fire and hit for less. That is the price you pay for an increase in accuracy.
_________________
http://www.rickknox3d.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
missmatronic
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 70
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pneumonic,

Have you played Feds versus Orions, especially some of the new ship cards? I found knife fighting with the Orions slow to moderate suicide. I just avoid doing this with opponents who dance around my Fed's FA.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1845

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pneumonic81 wrote:
The Ions do work better in situations where modifiers are present however. I am not suggesting they are broken, only that they dont seem to have the damage per point of power that photons have most of the time. They can be more expensive to fire and hit for less. That is the price you pay for an increase in accuracy.


Only at range 0, 1 and 2 do photons out perform Ions to any major extent (assuming no EM etc), but at that point you are usually looking at overloads where the photon has no great damage/energy efficieny advantage.

Accuracy is key part of a weapon, you can't simply say you pay the price for accuracy with lower damage and hence the other photon is better. Once you account for accuracy you have 2 weapon systems which are pretty close on an either comparison (dam/energy or damage/volley), the photon holds the edge at point blank range, the ion at longer ranges.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pneumonic81
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 275
Location: Austin TX

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

missmatronic wrote:
Pneumonic,

Have you played Feds versus Orions, especially some of the new ship cards? I found knife fighting with the Orions slow to moderate suicide. I just avoid doing this with opponents who dance around my Fed's FA.


oh yes, the Orions definitly cause trouble for the feds. The Ion will be better against thos situations. This is merely my first impressions of the power curve of Ions.
_________________
http://www.rickknox3d.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
terryoc
Captain


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1379

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't fly your Vudar like your Feds. The Feds make up for the photon's lack of accuracy by getting to range 0 and letting rip with a massive crunch that can't miss. I think the Vudar should hit a shield with standard shots a couple of times and then go in to trade overloads at close range on the damaged shield. The higher accuracy of the 'cannon makes this practical.
_________________
"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pneumonic81
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 275
Location: Austin TX

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking this morning I wonder if a range 8 OL exchange would be a good idea with the vudar. 2-7 isnt that bad, you could score pretty effectly and do a fair amount of damage. The only problem would be keeping distance for the next turn while u re-armed.
_________________
http://www.rickknox3d.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
junior
Captain


Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pneumonic81 wrote:
As I examine the Vudar I am finding that If I want to take advantage of the weapon, I should fire it in overload mode. However according to the rules I will need to use 12 points of power that turn (in a 150 point ship) on Ion Cannons alone in order to pull that off. I think that, while I havent played it yet, I will be unable to keep up speed and still fire these as overloads like the Photons.


It's a trade-off. The Hellbore, which works similarly (Pre-load turn 1, load turn 2, overload at the moment of fire) can't be held at all, meaning that the Hydran has to pay the loading cost each turn regardless of how long the weapon has been "loaded". Overloading and firing all four hellbores on a heavy cruiser costs 24 energy.

The Ion Cannons seem closer in effect to Hellbores than they do to Photons in the way that their energy is payed, so I think that SVC made the right call in the way that the energy allocation is handled.

Quote:
The weapon chart has a typo, but it is on the chart.


Even with that, I think that it might be useful to have a line of text in the rules that states, "An Ion Cannon does six points of damage." Or something to that effect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nerroth
Captain


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1557
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to say that it may be interesting for Fed and Empire purposes to see that fiction-wise, it seems that the 'Low Vudar' option is being used in FC...

...assuming it's going to supersede the take on the Vudar seen in PD Klingons, that is.


(PD Klingons gives a more generous take on the 'emergence' of the Vudar - but then, perhaps that entry is part of the 'political fiction' referred to here?)
_________________
FC Omega Discussion (v3)
FC LMC Discussion
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
terryoc
Captain


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1379

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Observations on the Ion Cannon and Vudar

Played a Vudar vs Klingon Robot last night. Vudar are different to Feds, in that they can bring their full firepower over the entire forward arc, not just the forward centreline. Makes it easier to "sabre-dance". The fact that two of the ICs can fire in the FX arc is handy, makes it hard to keep down shields out of the arc of the ICs. Try to fly it a bit like a Klingon, using the #2 and #6 shields while preserving the #1 to approach behind.

Against a foe which is armed with phaser-2s (most Klingons and Hydrans), exchanging overloads at range 4 is better than range 3: the ICs are not affected, the Vudar's phaser-1s are slightly worse but the foe's phaser-2s really start to suck.

Proximity ICs have a LOWER average damage than standards at the same range, but are much more likely to score SOME damage. If an opponent shows me a down shield at range, and I don't expect to get a better (i.e. much closer, or overloaded) shot soon, proximity ICs are a tempting option.

Vudar take damage a bit like a Lyran. Decent amount of hull, average labs, IPGs vulnerable to getting shot off, or raided by Marines.
_________________
"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group