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Who, if anyone, wants a FC: Early Years module?
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derek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 31
Location: Lucaston, Tasmania

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G'Day

hmm ....... No.

Cheers

Derek
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Kor
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Joined: 16 Nov 2008
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Location: Pasadena, Ca.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to see early years done, and since FC is doing boxes for specific theatres of the "world" we play in, it seems it would be easy enough to put out a box of Feds (or Terrans, Andorians, and Vulcans), Klingons, and Romulans much like Distant Kingdoms or Klingon / Romulan Border. If it goes over well, we can see other expansions, if not, then those of us liking the EY period would still have what we need for some fun.

I also would like put my vote in to see some pre-war stuff. The Kzinti CS, Feds without the phaser and drone upgrades, Klingons with phaser 2s and those old drone racks.
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Paul B
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Joined: 27 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't mind seeing some Early ships. It always kind of bugged me how for example the Fed CA was almost on par with the NCA because the FC version incorporated all the refits for simplicities sake. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the older, unrefitted ships. Because is the Fed CA supposed to represent the TOS era 1701? Or the TMP era 1701? Or something inbetween?
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul B wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing some Early ships. It always kind of bugged me how for example the Fed CA was almost on par with the NCA because the FC version incorporated all the refits for simplicities sake. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the older, unrefitted ships. Because is the Fed CA supposed to represent the TOS era 1701? Or the TMP era 1701? Or something inbetween?

I think you are confusing some terms.

Early Years is different from what you are talking about. You are really talking about Middle Years. Early Years ships use much earlier versions of technology, and are therefore much less capable (e.g. no Ph-1s, no overloads, much lower power, etc.) Middle Years ships use the same technology as the published ships, but are before all of the refits were applied.

Basically, an Early Years package would include rules and ship cards. The rules would be required to explain the limitations of the technology in the ships, and for any of the earlier, crappier weapons that were later superceded.

A Middle Years package, on the other hand, could include only ships, as none of the rules are changed (in fact, the only real change, slower drones, is already part of the rules). You (and a few others) are really talking about Middle Years, whereas Gary is talking about the actual Early Years.

As for the Fed CA, the TOS CA is most likely the Middle Years CA that doesn't have the refits (or maybe only as the "R" rear phaser refit). The CA included in FC is really an "alternative universe" ship that is based on the TOS CA, but is not the Movie CA.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To broaden the discussion, I do not expect to see either of these settings (or eras, or whatever term is best to use) to be formally published as full Attack products with laminated ship cards, etc., anytime in the near future. If ever. There is just *way* too much that needs to be done in the meantime for the default, current setting.

There are also problems with both of those settings, too. For the Middle Years, the biggest problem is that many of the ships are exactly the same as the current ships, but lose weapons/shields/power over the published version. History shows that when most players are given the choice between using (I am going to use SFB nomeclature for a moment) a CA and a CARa+, the vast majority will immediately, and instinctively, select the CARa+. Steve remains unconvinced that there are enough people who would rather pick the CA to justify formal products for the Middle Years. And, quite frankly, the Early Years is even worse, as the YCA is even less capable than the CA that most people would skip over.

That right there is pretty much the primary hurdle that both an Early Years setting and a Middle Years setting would have to overcome: There is no proof they would sell well enough to justify the work required to create them, and plenty of evidence that they wouldn't.

[IMPORTANT NOTE: Please do not start a poll on this subject. There just aren't enough contributors on this forum to make the results of any such poll statistically relevant, even if the poll ended up being 100% for. And, as we have seen from the posts thus far, it wouldn't be 100% for.]

That all said, I would like to see either or both settings eventually done. To get there, what I am trying to do is see if we can do some incremental steps that require little investment on the part of ADB, but will allow for reaction so that ADB can gauge interest (or lack there of) in the setting.

For the Early Years, what I really hope to do is have an article (that builds on the Project Z articles in the last two Captain's Logs) the gives the rules necessary to use most of the ships in Y1 and Y2 with Federation Commander rules. It would include the general rules necessary to use Federation Commander in the Early Years, plus some of the EY-only weapons. This article would take little space in CL, and little ADB time to proof, so there is not much investment. Response to the article would then provide a decent indicator as to whether there really was any interest in doing formal Early Years releases.

For the Middle Years, I haven't really decided on an approach yet.
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Nerroth
Captain


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps a reasonable introduction to the Middle Years could be to expand upon the ship types which carried over from the Y-era, but had yet to be quite as badly outclassed as they would be in the late General War era - such as the various National Guard/Local Defence cruisers and so forth.

Then, throw in a few of the MY-specific vessels of note, such as the Lyran Royal Tiger, Hydran Templar and Klingon C6.

Maybe even add the historical Peladine, too - or at least those ships which would have entered service in time to try and fight off the Lyrans in 2530.
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junior
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the first MY 'introduction product' (though not labeled as such) will presumeably be whichever product has the Franz Joseph ships.

In most cases, players could even convert FC ships fairly easily themselves. The primary difficulty would be figuring out the number of shield boxes on all ships, since nearly every ship had upgraded shields. The other changes (particularly for the Klingons, who iirc didn't actually add any new systems to their ships) are fairly straightforward once you figure out the pattern that the refits followed (as each nationality tends to have a pattern set for the refits that goes across all of the ship classes).

Ships like the early dreadnoughts might not be so straightforward, but in most cases the ship designs (for instance, the various CA designs) have been in production since just after the end of the EY period.

The noteable exception, of course, is the Romulans.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the ISC, for that matter - who were still in the Y-era, more or less, until Y160 (though part of that was due to budgetary constraints, as opposed to deficiencies in scientific progress).
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junior
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They don't count, since they're not officially released yet.

Razz

Along with the Vudar and the Andromedans.

(the Jindarians, of course, would remain 'as is')
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Paul B
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:

There are also problems with both of those settings, too. For the Middle Years, the biggest problem is that many of the ships are exactly the same as the current ships, but lose weapons/shields/power over the published version. History shows that when most players are given the choice between using (I am going to use SFB nomeclature for a moment) a CA and a CARa+, the vast majority will immediately, and instinctively, select the CARa+. Steve remains unconvinced that there are enough people who would rather pick the CA to justify formal products for the Middle Years.


Well I think part of the problem is the nature of the player base. Most people playing the game just like the game or the show, compare this instead to something like Historical Gamers where they might care a little more about accuracy (not really sure). All of my games of late have been "bring X number of points and have at 'er". I mean it's not a "problem" per say, something like Battletech's the same way, it's just the nature of the playerbase (in my experience). If the players just say points most people will probably bring newer tech weaponry rather than the old stuff.

Even a game like, Flames of War (which recreates WW2 battles) which I also play has issues. It has the "setting" method in place, using Early War, Mid War and Late War settings. Which on the whole, works pretty well. Armies Lists from one era can't be used against a list from another. But even in individual settings you get inaccuracies, like we played a battle in North Africa for example and one of my opponents brought Flamethrower Tanks and Heavy German tanks which weren't ever used in that area. But they were used in Italy/Tunisia, which is still Mid War.

Unless the players are playing a pre-defined scenario wherein the creator has stipulated what's available for use, and what is not, or if the players are playing in a full fledged campaign and the ships simply aren't available to them due to lack of research, they'll generally just take whatever to suit the points. So in this example, most probably would take the CARa+ or whatever. UNLESS of course, the CA standard fit whatever remained of the points they had to fill.
Heck my opponents has paired regular fleets with the likes of Juggernauts and Planetkillers on occasion; not very historical but points are points.


Though PERSONALLY, I would be interested in the Middle Years ships simply because they are what I watched on TV/DVD. It's what I have the strongest connection to. But I'm probably the minority in that. I'm less inclined to care about Early Years as I don't know much about it. Is that the era where the Feds used Lasers and Gauss cannons or something? (or maybe that was FASA's game). The only thing I really know about Early Years aside from what's on Enterprise is that the Feds and Rommies had a nice little war for a while.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always wondered how long it took SVC (and others who contributed) to come up with the idea of a General War. That seems to have been the driving force for the direction of SFB (and FedComm since it is based pretty much in the GW era). Was the GW in mind from the very beginning back in the late 70's?

I remember the very first ships for SFB being what are being called the middle years variety. Then the upgrades and refits started coming.

No criticism intended. Just wondering.
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Requete
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Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Leander, TX

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the idea of a Middle Years package interesting. Our group (Round Rock) allows players to come up with special scenarios, and my personal interest is in "historically-themed" games. But them I'm also an historical minis guy.
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KJ
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Joined: 28 Dec 2007
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Location: Riverside, CA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y-era? I'd be happy with conversion guidelines in a CL or two, and would pay for an "Y-Attack" style product should one ever appear. I'd much rather see (after ISC/Andros/Vudar/Jindarians/gunboats) an FC: Omega Sector product become available. Wink
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laminated ship cards and die cut counters are expensive and must be bought in huge quantities. I'm not convinced that there is enough market for early or middle years to spend the money. I don't need to print 1,000 copies of something and sell 73 copies.

If you tell me you'd be happy with paper SSDs (not in color, not laminated) and using the counters you have now, Leanna would schedule both products for the spring in a heartbeat.
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pneumonic81
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 275
Location: Austin TX

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:
Laminated ship cards and die cut counters are expensive and must be bought in huge quantities. I'm not convinced that there is enough market for early or middle years to spend the money. I don't need to print 1,000 copies of something and sell 73 copies.

If you tell me you'd be happy with paper SSDs (not in color, not laminated) and using the counters you have now, Leanna would schedule both products for the spring in a heartbeat.


hey man, anything you want to release like that is COOL with me. I dont need laminated cards to get the job done Smile
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