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X-Ships
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the really bad things about the X-Ships module in SFB is that it's basically a collection of rules modifications.

Normal ships do it this way, but X-ships do it THIS way....'

I always thought that this was a clunky way of doing things and is one of the reasons why I have never player X-ships in SFB in Captain's Edition SFB.

For a pick-up-and-go game like FC, such a format would be fatal IMO. Would this newer product be easier to use than the SFB X-ships format?
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
For a pick-up-and-go game like FC, such a format would be fatal IMO. Would this newer product be easier to use than the SFB X-ships format?


Simply put, it would have to be made simpler/easier in order to fit into FC, otherwise it would ruin the "pick up and play" and fast-paced feel of the game.

As FC is, there is no "timescale" as such, but most of the ships are refitted in such a way as to represent the ships as they would appear in a similar time period - granted there are concessions such as the E4 and D6 having the "B" refit where the F5 and D7 get the "K" refit, but I assume this is to make the F5 and D7 sufficiently more powerful than their lighter counterparts to make them worth using for the extra points. If X-ships were added, they might not fit so smoothly into the era depicted by the ships currently in FC, even if what is currently there doesn't represent a precise "year" but more a "mid/late General War" period.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davec_24 wrote:
Simply put, it would have to be made simpler/easier in order to fit into FC, otherwise it would ruin the "pick up and play" and fast-paced feel of the game.

That's what I meant - pick up and play. Thanks Dave.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a good idea (to package early years and X-ships together).

The package would be huge and expensive.

Players would get pissed (at least 80% of them woud).

We have build the most fanatically-loyal fan base in wargame history by simply giving players what they want (e.g., you can buy any miniature and aren't forced to buy a pack of five ships to get one new one) and NOT pissing them off. Mixing X and Y seems counter-productive.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I lkike the idea of the "Briefing" format for products like Middle Years and Early Years, I think Mike is correct about X-ships.

Enough people are going to be intersted in that product that consideration should be given towards making that a regular "Attack" pack - or if it's too big for a single package, go for two... Alliance Attack and Coalition Attack.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really think merging X and Y eras would be counter productive. Besides, I think that the Y era is going to take two Briefings as it is.

I am sure that the X era could fit into a single Briefing (since so much of what is in X1R is completely unusable in Federation Commander). But I still think that X fans should be gunning for actual Attack Modules, not settling for Briefings.

On the issue of X rules, I expect that X rules in Federation Commander will be incredibly light. I can see several weapons notes (like single-turn arming and 2xPh-3 shots from Ph-1x), but I expect most of the fiddly stuff would be ignored.
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pneumonic81
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:

On the issue of X rules, I expect that X rules in Federation Commander will be incredibly light. I can see several weapons notes (like single-turn arming and 2xPh-3 shots from Ph-1x), but I expect most of the fiddly stuff would be ignored.


Thats how we did it, we wanted it to be fast and easy to learn, so we put the rules in that made the most sense, and went with big strokes. It may tunr out through testing we need to add a bit more to make them powerful ebnough to hang in there, but so far so good.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see X-ships for FC during 2009. At the end of 2009, we can look at...

sales figures for W&P and HA.

work schedule for 2010.

cost of producing viable X-modules

and decide.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

would there need to be new "rules" other then weapons rules really? I know there is a battery change and a accelleration change but other then that was there much else?
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Dal Downing
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Joined: 06 May 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could be called all wet but things I would expect in XShips;

1) Upto 3 Points of Power can be cycled through each battery box for upto 3 points of Shield Reinforcement.

2) Each Tractor Beam could hold 2 Drones (Impacted) or Fighters (Out to range 1) for one point of power.

3) XSips subtract 1 from their Die Rolls to Hit Non XShips. (No Column Shifts) Each Non XShip adds one to thier Die Rolls to hit a XShip. (No Column Shifts)

4) Each Phaser can Pulse 2 Phaser 3s.

5) Fast Load Heavy Wepons.

6) XShips regenerate Shields at 1 power for 1 shield.

7) XShips can shift 2 groups of 5 point Shield Blocks a turn.

8.) XShips get 2 free HETs per Games. When a XShip suffers a Break down it only rolls half the Damage.

Now some people will look at that rough list and go whoa, they are way over powered. Yes. Ask the HMS Hood how it faired aginst the Bismark. This discussion can wait a year or 2 and I am sure it should but, I just figured I would point out what I expect to see.
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dal Downing wrote:
I could be called all wet but things I would expect in XShips;


this is what we did for our house rules, more or less:

1) Upto 3 Points of Power can be cycled through each battery box for upto 3 points of Shield Reinforcement. Batteries also hold 3 power each in reserve

2) we didnt do this rule at all. No real need, and we wanted to keep the rules very trim and fast.

3) XSips subtract 1 from their Die Rolls to Hit Non XShips. (No Column Shifts) Each Non XShip adds one to thier Die Rolls to hit a XShip. (No Column Shifts). We didnt so this, its a bit much. it seems too difficult to hit them with this, and too easy for them to hit back. We may add in the part about +1 to hit non x ships, but thats about it.

4) Each Phaser can Pulse 2 Phaser 3s. only in defensive fire phase.

5) Fast Load Heavy Wepons.

6) XShips regenerate Shields at 1 power for 1 shield. we did this but only up to the maximum capacity of the batteries.

7) XShips can shift 2 groups of 5 point Shield Blocks a turn. Good idea, I am going to suggest this one!

8.) XShips get 2 free HETs per Games. We did this part of your suggestion, and skipped the other part.

We also added some other things, like letting X ships go last in the order of movment, etc. Overall I think they have been balanced and sucessful in our battles, we have been using them for several months.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I almost completely agree with Rick's assessment, with two minor exceptions: I would totally flush #3 and #6.

The reason for #3 is that this would be just way to devistating. It would be tremendously unbalancing. The only piece of this I could see is that it will reduce any shift by one (e.g. +2 goest to +1), but can't go negative.

The reason for #6 is that ships regenerate very quickly in Federation Commander. Allowing a ship to rebuild it shields quickly like this could have some nasty unintended consequences. Instead, I would just want to ignore this and leave it alone.
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats a good point about 6, i will discuss it with the group. The only issue right now is they border on weakish but its so close. We limited shield regen to prevent total regenerations. So far it works fairly well however in limiting races from getting more then 9-12 shields back at once.

The biggest issue is lack of staying power. Xships dont last as long as nons. This is why we kept a limited verson of x shield regen
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Requete
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Joined: 15 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pneumonic81 wrote:
thats a good point about 6, i will discuss it with the group. The only issue right now is they border on weakish but its so close. We limited shield regen to prevent total regenerations. So far it works fairly well however in limiting races from getting more then 9-12 shields back at once.

The biggest issue is lack of staying power. Xships dont last as long as nons. This is why we kept a limited verson of x shield regen


One thing I noticed on the shield regeneration: it means that things like hellbores are not very good. A fusilade of hellbores against a fresh X ship will eat up the shields, but they'll be back in no time. Whereas photons are relatively much better because they tend to punch through a shield and do internals... internals are where the X ships seem to suffer.

My relatively uninformed and inexperienced opinion is that the cheap shield regeneration is too good... X ships already seem to have plenty of power and amazing batteries.
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Requete wrote:
pneumonic81 wrote:
thats a good point about 6, i will discuss it with the group. The only issue right now is they border on weakish but its so close. We limited shield regen to prevent total regenerations. So far it works fairly well however in limiting races from getting more then 9-12 shields back at once.

The biggest issue is lack of staying power. Xships dont last as long as nons. This is why we kept a limited verson of x shield regen


One thing I noticed on the shield regeneration: it means that things like hellbores are not very good. A fusilade of hellbores against a fresh X ship will eat up the shields, but they'll be back in no time. Whereas photons are relatively much better because they tend to punch through a shield and do internals... internals are where the X ships seem to suffer.

My relatively uninformed and inexperienced opinion is that the cheap shield regeneration is too good... X ships already seem to have plenty of power and amazing batteries.


I have played the X-ships quite a bit in fedcom using our rules. We limit the amount of shields u can fix to the max batt capacity to avoid alot of crazy stuff. However one thing I have noticed is more often then not your running for your life, and on top of that you want to take advantage of every turn arming wepaons. what ends up happening is that you really cant afford the power for more then 4-5 points to repair shields anyway unless your opponent leaves u alone for a while so u can repair. usually they dont.
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