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X-Ships
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did #2 come from? Petrick and I don't remember that being part of SFB. We need FCX that uses SFBX not just some randomly selected bunch of goodies.
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:
Where did #2 come from? Petrick and I don't remember that being part of SFB. We need FCX that uses SFBX not just some randomly selected bunch of goodies.


The double tractor thing? No idea, I dont recall that being in SFB, we dont have it in our house rules.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh. I guess I am going to have to put "write X-ship rules for FC" on my "to do" list.
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:
Sigh. I guess I am going to have to put "write X-ship rules for FC" on my "to do" list.


I think it may be lucrative for you.
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Dal Downing
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:
Where did #2 come from? Petrick and I don't remember that being part of SFB. We need FCX that uses SFBX not just some randomly selected bunch of goodies.


That was my interpetation of why XShips sounded the Death Knell for Atrition units. Of course as watered down as Fighters and Drones are in FC you may not need it if, you let the Phaser Pulses hit Fighters and Gunboats as well. Course that would also be modified by how X Drone Racks work.

MJW The reason for #2 and may be the reason the pneumonic's XShips spend their time running for thier lives is the lack of Electronic Warefare in FC.
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

attrition units die to x ships because of HW rapid fire, IMHO.

Also adding the advanced shield repairs keep the x ships in our rule alive longer, so the dont run for thier lives. However uncouterable ECM cant be used in FC without tossing balance out the window.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dal Downing wrote:
That was my interpetation of why XShips sounded the Death Knell for Atrition units. Of course as watered down as Fighters and Drones are in FC you may not need it if, you let the Phaser Pulses hit Fighters and Gunboats as well. Course that would also be modified by how X Drone Racks work.

This is a common misconception about X-ships. X-ships didn't "sound the death knell for attribtion units". They made it a tougher environment for attrition units, but they didn't make them go away. I figure that should be beyond clear considering how much of X2 involves X-ships carrying attrition units! Why would they be carrying attrition units into battle if they were now irrelevant?

Anyway, any X-ship ability should only be based on an ability in SFB. There should be no abilities created out of whole-cloth. Since #2 doesn't exist in SFB, I don't see why it should in Federation Commander.

(Note that the reverse of this is not true. Just because an X-ship gets an ability in SFB doesn't mean that it needs or will have that ability in Federation Commander. A lot of the changes are just fiddly little things (e.g. impulse delay changes) that should just be ignored.)

Important Disclaimer: This is all my opinion. I don't make decisions; Steve does.
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Dal Downing
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MJW I have X2 and my impression of the Scout Carriers were they had 2 functions. RTN Hunting and Picket Duties, not Fleet Battles. Either way I can patiently wait for SVC to write XShip Rules someday/ It was not my intention to start a major disscussion on XShips at this time. Besides it seems XShips are going to go the way of the Stinger. Not bad just different =)
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eunderko
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did the actual first draft of the X-rules for the Round Rock FC group.

I sorta wanted to keep the +1 vs. non-X-Ships but got talked out of it. After playing with X-ships, I think tossing it was a good call (I wanted to make it take some power to gain the advantage, but that got a bit complicated).

I do think we went a bit far with the fast-loaded weapons, in that we removed the partial overloads for Photons (and ION cannons, although these weren't in the game when we did the original rules). I think we are considering adding them back in.

On the shield repair, I think that is a nice thing to have. Since X-ships without shields tend to die more quickly than their non-X equivalents (in point value), getting the shields back up is important. Note that we are talking 9-15 boxes a turn, and only if the X-ship has 9-15 power available.

I think I managed to find one turn to repair 9 boxes when flying the KNX, but the following turn, the opponent was back on me, so I had to do other stuff.

Also, while X-ships have a lot of power, it goes pretty quickly when fast-loading, blocking attacks, etc., and it takes a while to build it back up if the enemy keeps the pressure on.
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Round Rock BG is our group BTW. Eunderko was really interested inbringing xships to the game. Initially iwas against it. However the first draft wasnt as bad as i expected, power wize, so i went over it and made my changes. We have been refining them ever since, and i think we are probably pretty close.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of limiting X-ships' ability to repair shield boxes according to their total battery capacity, this could have strange results when batteries get knocked out as this would reduce how many shield boxes can be regenerated, potentially to below the capacity of "non-X" ships since of course as things stand there is no such rule for these.

Also the Orions might not like the idea, since engine-doubling to afford shield repairs is a valid tactic that may potentially be spoilt at least slightly by this idea. Does giving X-ships the capacity to reinforce 3 times as many shield boxes using batteries go some way to counteracting their relative lack of damage absorption capacity?
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eunderko
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1-1 cost is limited to number of batts. Beyond that, the normal 2 power/1 repair apply.

The potential to block/repair a lot of damage is there, but given the power needs of the faster arming weapons, it ends up being rather self-limiting in the end, unless you can manage to find a couple of turns where no one is threatening you.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds fair enough. It might help keep X-ships alive long enough for them to utilise their fast-loading heavy weapons, but then it might also make them *too* powerful by the same token. So long as they are playtested and their points values worked out according to their ability in FC rather than in SFB, then this shouldn't be an issue.
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest problem I have seen with the x-ships, and we play them often, is that they just cant stand toe to toe with bigger ships of the same value. They are fast, and manuverable, and they can hit hard. But to win in FC with an x-ship you need to really make sure you outmanuver your opponent.

If you exchange shots in an X ship up close, your x-ship is gonna die every time. even if they exchange the same damage points, because ships of the equal value often have alot more internals that can absorb the damage. This is why we kept the shield repair in and may need to add something else down the road.

The game we played last week I was the only one in an X-ship, and sadley was the first to die. Partly my fault for not paying attention. I shoudlnt have goen toe to toe with a dreadnought in a cruiser size ship.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that is key...you can't go toe-to-toe with a DN if you're in a CAX.

I remember that, originally in SFB, X-ships were part of an alternate viewpoint on the progression of things in a setting where DNs did not get developed. I think that idea got dropped pretty fast, though. About as fast as overloaded phasers. Now that (o-lded ph) would make X-ships *very* dangerous.
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