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Tractor Question

 
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Barry Kirk
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 46
Location: York, PA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:30 am    Post subject: Tractor Question Reply with quote

Question or clarification of Rule 5D6b from CRUL

because right now I'm totally confused by the rule.

From CRUL

If two tractor-linked ships both accelerate, or both
decelerate, neither moves. If one ship accelerates and
the other decelerates, the ship that decelerated cancels
its movement and the other ship moves the linked pair
one hex. You cannot decelerate during an impulse when
you are not scheduled to move, so this combination
would not always be possible.

Questions

1) Does this section of 5D6b only occur if the two ships have the same amount of power for baseline movement?

2) The part where, if both ships accelerate neither moves makes sense. But how can both decelerate? Since, only one or the other can move and you cannot decelerate during an impulse when you are not scheduled to move.

2) The part where one ship accelerates and the other decelerates. How does this occur?

Could you provide an example?
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Davec_24
Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 596
Location: England

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Yes, this situation will only occur if both the tractoring and tractored ships have spent the same amount of energy on their baseline movement.

2) If both ships are due to move on the same sub-pulse (for example a ship at any baseline speed greater than 0 or stopped will be scheduled to move on sub-pulse 4 of any given impulse) then both will have the opportunity to decelerate instead of take their move. If both ships choose to decelerate at this point, then neither ships moves.

However, if one ship decelerates and the other does not, the one that did not decelerate moves the pair of ships. If one ship accelerates and the other did not, then the ship which accelerated will move the pair of ships.

3) To give you an example, say a (Squadron Scale) Fed CA had a D7 on a tractor beam, and both ships chose baseline speed 16. Because they have both spent 16 energy tokens on baseline movement that turn, we have arrive at the situation where acceleration and deceleration decide which ship will move the pair.

This kind of situation could also be arrived at if two ships of differing movement costs are at different baseline speeds but spend the same amount of energy for movement. For example, if a CA and an F5 were linked by tractor, and the CA chose baseline speed 8 and the F5 chose speed 16, both would be paying 8 energy tokens for baseline speed, and so any movement would be the result of acceleration or deceleration. In such an instance, since the ships would be moving at different baseline speeds, they would be due to move on different sub-pulses, giving rise to the part where the CRUL says "You cannot decelerate during an impulse when you are not scheduled to move, so this combination would not always be possible". I think the word "impulse" there should actually be "sub-pulse", and even if not the explanation given above still holds true for a sub-pulse where one ship is due to move and the other not.

Back to the D7 and CA example, if at the start of an impulse both ships choose to expend an energy point to accelerate, then both ships are still spending the same amount of energy on movement and neither will move. However, if during a sub-pulse where the CA is due to move (this could be pulse 2,3 or 4 as it accelerated) the CA pays an energy token for deceleration but the D7 did not, the CA's move for that sub-pulse would be cancelled, and the D7 would move the pair of ships one hex because it is temporarily "faster".

In the situation where neither ship payed for acceleration at the start of the impulse, but one (but not both) ships then subsequently decelerated during a sub-pulse in which it was due to move, the ship which did not decelerate would presumably move the pair of ships by extension of the example where boths ships accelerate and then the other decelerates, although I don't think this is specifically stated.

Hope this helps, even if it is rather long-winded...
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Barry Kirk
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 46
Location: York, PA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have my rulebook handy, but from memory. I seem to remember, an earlier rule in the section that claims that if both ships spend the same amount of power for base movement, then neither ship moves.

Since both ships don't move, there is no movement to cancel with a decel.
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Davec_24
Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think where it says it "cancels its movement" by decelerating, it doesn't so much cancel a move that would have physically happened on the board, but cancels the effect of the decelerting ship's "movement" (i.e. the effect of its engine power) for the impulse. This effect would have been to prevent the ship you are linked to from moving you, and so because this effect is cancelled, the other ship can move you both for that sub-pulse. Hope that makes sense!
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Barry Kirk
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 26 Dec 2008
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Location: York, PA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, still confused. Confused

Here are the possible cases.

1) Neither ship accelerates.. Nobody moves and nobody has the possibility to decelerate.


2) Both Ships accelerate. Nobody moves and nobody has the possibility to decel.

3) Ship A accelerates and ship B doesn't. Then ship A would move.

a) If ship A then decelerates, does that give ship B the opportunity to move unless it decels also?

Maybe the CRUL should have the underlined text removed. (was unable to get strikeout tag to work.)

"If one ship accelerates and the other decelerates, the ship that decelerated cancels its movement and the other ship moves the linked pair one hex."

Or am I missing something?

With those two words "the other" removed, the rule makes perfect sense.
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Davec_24
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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Location: England

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barry Kirk wrote:
Sorry, still confused. Confused

Here are the possible cases.

1) Neither ship accelerates.. Nobody moves and nobody has the possibility

2) Both Ships accelerate. Nobody moves and nobody has the possibility to decel.


Well, this isn't actually true in that in both of the above cases, both ships have the opportunity to decelerate. Deceleration can be done in any movement sub-pulse in which the ship is due to move. So, if a ship is scheduled to "move" in the current sub-pulse (note that this may not result in actual movement on the board due to being tractored), it may choose to decelerate even if the same ship has not chosen to "accelerate" at the start of the impulse.

Barry Kirk wrote:

a) If ship A then decelerates, does that give ship B the opportunity to move unless it decels also?


In this case, ship A accelerated and so by decelerating ends up (in terms of net acceleration and deceleration) as having not done either. This could mean one of two things, although which I am not entirely sure: firstly, it could be that neither ship moves since neither accelerated/decelerated overall and are still paying the same energy for un-cancelled movement. Alternatively, ship B could move ship A because ship A decelerated. I'm nopt sure which of these would be the case, good question.
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Barry Kirk
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Joined: 26 Dec 2008
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Location: York, PA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

I think I see what your getting at, but if so that opened a big can of worms of confusion and complexity which is what Fed Commander is supposed to simplify.

Let me give an example.

Ship A and B are both CA move cost of 1. Both ships have a base speed of 24. Since they have the same power for move neither ship moves.

Case 1)

Ship A and Ship B both accel, so neither ship moves. Without a tractor they would both move on all subimpulses. But since they are tractored the base speed is reduced by 1 to base speed 16 which accelerated is 16+ or 24.

Question, is Ship A eligible to decel on subimpulse 1,2,3, or 4 or only 2,3, and 4?

Case 2)

Only ship A accels which allows it to move both ships at 24+1 but then -1 because of tractor. Effective speed of 24. Ship B is at effective speed of 16 because of tractor although that is a virtual effective speed because it doesn't move because of tractor.

Question, could ship B decel on impulses 2 and 4? If so, what does it buy by doing this?

This brings up another question. If a ship A is base speed 16 and ship B is effective speed 24. Ship A doesn't move because it has the lower base power. Can it still perform normal turns, or is it capable of tacs?

Sorry, but still confused.
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am working on a clarification to this that I think will finally resolve all of this.

However, before stating it on the forum, I want to check it with Steve first.
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Barry Kirk
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Location: York, PA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,

Are you available on Thursday to participate in the weekly Talkshoe hosted by Paul Franz?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I attended a few times, but then fell off because of the holiday season. I have been trying to make it again, but it has just been a bit difficult. Hopefully, this can be the week to return. Smile
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Barry Kirk
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Joined: 26 Dec 2008
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Location: York, PA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,

Of course after inviting you to Talk Shoe last week. I forgot to call in myself. Doh!!!! Embarassed

I've set my alarm for tonights Talk Shoe so I don't forget it.
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After the show bath and before the show, she went digging in the mud.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I can't promise to make tonight's call because I will be completely distracted by tonight's football game!

But I should be able to do next week ...
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