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Shield Boundry Question

 
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mattyfoe
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Joined: 21 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:09 pm    Post subject: Shield Boundry Question Reply with quote

When a player has the option to choose which shield takes damage from a volley due to receiving fire on a boundry, must the shield be declared before any dice are rolled?

I know that this does not make a major difference very often, but I have had it come up a couple of times lately. Namely, a D7 was taking fire to its #2 from my KRC while both a Sparrowhawk and Snipe were firing into the boundry between #1 and #2. My opponent wanted to wait and see how the hits from one ship went before choosing a shield and then waiting to see damage again to try to avoid criticals. It did not work very well since I had so much fire. However, it did not seem fair that my "simultaneous" firing became segmented.
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junior
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know whether or not the rules say for certain. However, if they don't then regular old common sense would suggest that the target would need to pick the shield before the dice are rolled. After all, fire is nearly instantaneous (we're talking faster-than-light weapons here) and the targeted ship wouldn't have the chance to say, "Only two photons are going to hit. Let's talk the damage on our #2 shield."
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shield determination should be made prior to making any rolls.
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mattyfoe
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. My friend will not have a problem with this "change," which is cool. It was just a differing interpretation and as long as we both are bound by it he is fine.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Shield determination should be made prior to making any rolls.


Taken with the previous ruling about declaring all fire before making any rolls that sort of concerns me.

We generally play with numerous ships, something that FC is good at doing due to its very streamlined play with as little pre working out things, and marking/remembering thing as possible. This would seem to indicate that If I have 10 ships firing upon 10 other, possibly with each ship firing out of different arcs at different ships then I have to start working out shield arcs for all the various shooting going on, and probably recording it so that in 5 minutes when I get round to the later ones we remember which shield was declared. Rather than just dealinig with it as each volley comes in which is far faster and streamlined.

Neither does taking this 'multiple but simultaneous shooting' that far sit to well with other firing, e.g. ship based volleys rather than all fire that impulse, shield crackers being used before other weapons, hellbores (weakest shield at time of resolution not start of turn), ESGs and how they interact with things etc.

This ruling seems to be going back towards an SFB style of keeping track of far to much and pre-declaring things which starts to make larger scenarios become a pain.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason for the two rulings is to remove order of declaration from mattering. If you declare a portion of fire, then completely resolve it, then move on to the next, you give a tremendous advantage by delaying. If all of the declarations are made first, then it matters much less who goes first.

In the case of ambiguous shield boundary, the defender already has a significant advantage in determining what shield is hit. The defender does not need an additional advantage of being able to make the decision after seeing how damage has been applied.

As for recording, such decisions are made on a volley by volley basis. Even in a large battle, that shouldn't be unmanagable. Especially the shield boundary issue, as that is a very special case that isn't all that easy to set up.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

... double post.

Last edited by storeylf on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:

As for recording, such decisions are made on a volley by volley basis. Even in a large battle, that shouldn't be unmanagable. Especially the shield boundary issue, as that is a very special case that isn't all that easy to set up.


Its not about it being 'unmanageable', but just getting clunkier and slower. Someone else I was playing with today also mentioned that FC is slowly gaining the clunkiness of SFB with the accumulation of these rules clarifiactions etc.

The shield boundary issue comes up quite a bit when we are playing, it really isn't that hard to 'set up' at all.

Quote:

The defender does not need an additional advantage of being able to make the decision after seeing how damage has been applied.


However, neither player gains an advantage as it affects all players equally.

Quote:

The reason for the two rulings is to remove order of declaration from mattering.


the order of declaration matters with your ruling - how does this fit into the 'me to' style of game, do I decide shields as each attack is declared and then get to base my other attacks on the basis of which shield was choosen by the defender, or do you declare the attacks then the defender chooses shields but no one else can 'me to' declare after that point etc. Getting into this level of rules is going away from what to me seemed the basic principle of FC -keep it nice and simple and deal with decisions at the point the dice are rolled etc.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that if players are allowed to make decisions at the moment the dice are rolled as to what weapons are being fired at whom that this would give a tremendous advantage to the firing players (even if they were both opposing one another).

All fire is supposed to be simultaneous, so every volley must be declared before any dice are rolled. That is how it has always been in FC. You can "Me, too" fire after someone else announces, but once all announcements are made, firing decisions are over.

Case in point. Suppose a player fires some weapons and "almost" destroys something (ship, drone, whatever). He should not be allowed to fire any more bearing weapons at that target during that Offensive Fire Phase. And if no other ship had announced fire at that same target, neither should they be allowed after they have seen how things went.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

All fire is supposed to be simultaneous, so every volley must be declared before any dice are rolled. That is how it has always been in FC. You can "Me, too" fire after someone else announces, but once all announcements are made, firing decisions are over.


Except all fire isn't properly simultaneous - volley definition, shield crackers, hellbores etc all have effects that are resolved at the point of resolution not declaration. That works in game because FC has stuck to the keep it streamlined approach and is fairly consistent with that, but if you start to go to the 'most realistic', as it appears to be doing so then it starts to become a mish mash, is it a streamlined game? or a 'realistic' game of book-keeping/remembering all declarations etc.

I don't have a problem with getting all basic target declaration out the way before resolving it, but at what point does the shield choice get resolved? does it end the declatration and 'me to' part of the phase, if not then other ships then get to make choices based on what the defender declared. You can't get away from the fact that whenever the shield choice is made will affect other stuff in some way.
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Notalent
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A close reading of the rule doesnt support the rulling.
3D2
The attacking player can resolve each volley(3A4) in any order she chooses but must resolve one volley before moving on to the next. Systems (eg shields, batteries) destroyed by one volley would not be available to protect the ships against a subsequent volley...


Looking at it each volley should be delt with in total. The easiest fix would be to make the attacker do all volleys that are on boundries first. Then there is no need for declaration as it happens first. you could have some issues if you have multiple ships firing from the same sheild boundry, but that happens less frequently.
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