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The Low-Energy Turn
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Mike
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Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1526
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was on a hiatus from SFB the last couple of years because all the students who liked playing at our school had graduated and there wasn't interest. Recently when a few expressed an interest, I discovered Federation Commander and they have really gotten into it.

I wish I had known about FC during its development so I could have learned it from the ground up.
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Robert Knoke
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 49
Location: Aurora, CO

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget that your turn mode must still be satisfied. Though you are decelerating, it only counts for one hex of movement. It can be VERY expensive, especially at high speeds, to stay in a hex just to eventually turn one hexside.

Don't rely on this as a consistent tactic! It can help in a pinch, especially if you are close to satisfying your turn mode. It will probably also create more firing opportunities for you. But if you are ship (like the NCL) with a "wide" turn mode flying against something more manueverable, you are just sapping your own power. It may be more advisable to try and get a shot in at range and avoid the situation altogether.

You also may consider an ED. Your power spent is lower and at least you get to use the "unused" movement for shield reinforcement (sometimes useful if you're being chased by a mess of spread out drones and have a ship you really want to nail in front of you)...

And yeah, we can argue this one till we're blue in the face!

Just a possibility to consider....

Oh yeah, I tend to play a little on the "suicidal" side! It is just a game, after all. I'd rather have a good laugh with friends, than start an argument over a technicality Rolling Eyes
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike:

Yes, you got it down.

Robert:

If you are trying this at speed, yes, you have to keep your turn mode in mind. So, if you have a turn mode of 3, you would have to decelerate three times to turn in place (immediately after a previous turn, of course).

However, that is not what Mike was talking about. If you plot speed zero, then all ships have a turn mode of 1. This means his description is correct.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert: How would doing an ED be useful with drones chasing you?
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junior
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Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given his description, it sounds as if he's talking about drones coming in from every direction. That suggests that you're going to get hit no matter how you maneuver. ED would at least allow you to move your movement energy into shield reinforcement so that any drones that do hit you end up doing less damage.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes sense. The extra energy after an ED (emergency deceleration) could be used to reinforce several different shields up to the limit of the functioning batteries for each volley.
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Robert Knoke
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Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 49
Location: Aurora, CO

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've had drones chasing me down from all six directions-- and having a target just outside of (in this case) a FA+R arc in a D5W. Needed that extra shield power and to turn to get disruptors on target.

I still got gutted, but I did manage to cripple that Kzin I was chasin Twisted Evil !

I don't generally like low speed plots-- you can almost never reach tractor range (and if you do, a frigate with a faster speed plot becomes "The Boss"). The idea of a low speed plot, and hence low energy turns, is best reserved for having a wounded leg and not wanting to go down without making the other guy work for it.

I really like playing Klinks, mostly because I like to hit-and-fade alot, and have phasers reach into almost every arc.

Orions are cool for that reason-- but, alas, I have no pirate blood in me.
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Mark Humphries
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Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Philippines

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
To quote the relevant part of 2C4c (p. 12, Revision 4 rulebook), "For purposes of satisfying the sideslip requirement, a regular 60 degree turn resets the sideslip mode to zero."


On a side note, is the wording on this rule correct? Shouldn't it be "...resets the sideslip count to zero", or am I misunderstanding something?
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Robert Knoke
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Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 49
Location: Aurora, CO

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm not mistaken, the term "mode" is not really synonymous with "count." A mode is the number of required repetions (movements) before another event of a type can occur (i.e. a slip or a turn). A count is a number of repetitions (movements) aggregating towards the satisfaction of an event (movement or slip).

In the case of a slip mode: When "the slip mode is reset to zero"-- it means that a slip can occur. After the slip has occured, the slip mode increases to one. A further movement "counts" towards the slip mode, after which point a slip may occur. If a slip does not occur, further slips do not aggregate (ex. You slip on a sub pulse, and move straight for three hexes thereafter. You do NOT get to slip two contiguous hexes since the slip mode was satisfied twice. You only qualify for one slip).

In the case of a turn mode: Assume a ship starting at speed zero (not stopped). It must move one hex forward, before being allowed to turn a hex side (by game definition, all objects have a turn mode of one at speed zero). Yes, a deceleration can be used to satisfy a turn during the NEXT sub pulse (I am not referencing that fact now). Assuming you continue to move forward, it does'nt matter what speed(s) you vary your movement to. All hexes moved in one direction "count" towards satisfying the turn mode. If the "count" meets or exceeds the "mode," you qualify for a single "event" (a turn). Being stopped cancels everything mentioned above, and must start over.

The great thing about this distinction is: a slip can occur one sub-pulse BEFORE a turn. AFTER the turn is completed, the ship then gets to slip again.

You can get some really interesting (yet "time consumng/creating) combinations in movement. Just don't rely too much on it-- especially when being chased by plasma or drones.

If I'm wrong in this regard, I'm sure someone will let us know!
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mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert Knoke wrote:
In the case of a slip mode: When "the slip mode is reset to zero"-- it means that a slip can occur. After the slip has occured, the slip mode increases to one.

No. When "the slip mode is reset to zero" it means you cannot make a slip (2C4c). You may only make a slip once your slip mode is "satisfied" (2C4a).

Again, I think you are doing it right, but are not using the terms correctly.
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gar1138
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 341
Location: Eugene, OR

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies in advance for not fully following this, but I'm still confused by the Low Energy Turn. Plot speed 0, accelerate during Speed Change phase (going 0+1), decelerate on the 4th sub-pulse, and simply change your facing by 60 degrees in the same hex (ala, a TAC maneuver)? I don't have the rulebook in front of me right now, but my understanding was that decelerating cancelled the movement. Where does the ability to actually turn the ship's facing come from? If I accelerate, then decelerate, I've cancelled the movement, so nothing should happen (no movement, no facing change, nothing).

Perhaps I'm not following how turn modes play into this? I understand how deceleration counts towards fulfillment of the turn mode (allowing you to make a tighter turn), but if you've decelerated (cancelled a movement) you still shouldn't be able to move (or turn), right? Let alone simply change your facing without leaving the hex.

Where is the piece I'm missing? Thanks a lot,

Garrett
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The short answer is that if you have fulfilled your turn mode and you cancel a movement through deceleration (whether that movement was itself an acceleration or not), you can turn 60 degrees even though you don't leave the hex.

If, in addition, you are going speed 0, you have a turn mode of only 1. Therefore, that cancelled move you just did counts toward fulfilling your turn mode so that, if you accelerate and deceleration again next impulse, you can turn again. (Or, of course, you can only accelerate, then turn and move.)

I will post a longer explanation later tonight, if it is desired.
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gar1138
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 341
Location: Eugene, OR

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, thanks for the info. However, I still don't see how decelerating from speed 0+1 will simply allow you to change facing without leaving the hex. This implies to me that decelerating doesn't actually cancel all movement for that sub-pulse (which is what I thought it did). Is there a specific rule reference that allows this?

Wait, is this implying that "turning" isn't technically part of "movement"? So decelerating cancels the "movement", but not the "turn"? I'm not sure I buy that, either, though. I always thought (and played both FC and SFB) as a turn was simply a different type of movement (ie, instead of going straight, the ship turns 60 degrees and then goes straight). But in either case, decelerating should simply cancel the "maneuvering" of the ship all together, shouldn't it?

Hummm, maybe I'm confusing myself even more?

Thanks,

Garrett
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mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me try it this way.

Rule (2C1) says that the "actual act of turning the unit by 60 [degrees] is done at the start of a given Movement Sub-Pulse (immediately before moving into the next hex)."

Rule (2B2b) says "... decelerations are paid at the instant in a given sub-pulse when the ship would move." It also says "[c]ancelled movement points DO count against the turn mode requirement ..."

Putting it all together, we see that cancelled movement points count against the turn mode requirement. As we can see with (2C1), a turn is made at the very beginning of a subpulse. (2B2b) says that the movement is cancelled at the instant a move would be made. Therefore, the move is actually cancelled after the turn has already been made.

As for either completely or not quite completely cancelling movement, we already know that you can cancel a move when performing Evasive Manuevers, so we know that some movement still occurs.
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gar1138
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, thanks as always for the info. Greatly appreciated.

I think I follow the interpretation now. Sounds like, indeed, the actual act of turning the ship is considered/interpreted somewhat separate from the act of moving it out of the hex (at least as far as the accel/decel rules are concerned). I wonder if that was truly the original intent?

Anyway, thanks again, I really appreciate the helpful explanation.

Garrett
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