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Vudar Playtest
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it is Mike. I am an old timer that left and came back. It was actually EY that brought me back in, but Federation Commander gets my main attention now.

On W&P, its schedule is in flux a bit. The ISC still need work (I expect the PPD to evolve some), and, if they are to be included, the Andro will require some real development, too. As a result, it may not be the Origins release. It is just going to take some work to get all three empires done well. (It will get done. It just make take more time than anyone really wants.)
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Vudar Commander
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, whatever you need on Vudar, just ask.
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Vudar Commander
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Joined: 22 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bump to get Steve to take a look at this.

Continued play of the Vudar playtest ships shows that:

a: they fly like weaker Feds without the jamming mode IPG.

b: the fix seems simple and not unbalancing.

Jon
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike West: please whip up a staff memo on this, citing the problem (and why it's a problem), the possible solutions and the costs/benefits/implications of each. Send it to me when you get a chance.
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Vudar Commander
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Joined: 22 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Steven.

Mike, any help you need, please let me know.

Jon
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike sent me a memo. I approved it, but I want to review the way Mike wrote the rules to make sure they are tight.

These are Mike's playtest rules:

- Each point of power produces a shift of +1 under the (4A4) modifiers, up to a maximum of +3. The modifier is cumulative with other modifiers. [Note that (4A4) modifiers are capped at +3. This means that if used at the maximum, the IPG effect will make other modifiers irrelevant for that impulse.]

- This modifier applies to both the ship with the IPG, and to anyone firing on the ship.
- The IPG is triggered at the end of the Defensive Fire Step and only lasts for that impulse. [The IPG effect only occurs as the end of the impulse before fire. It affects direct fire on the impulse of activation.]

- If two ships are docked, only the larger may use its IPG(s). "Larger" is determined by movement rate. If the two docked ships are the same size, neither may use their IPG(s).

I want to be sure it's clear that power spent for IPG jamming doesn't give you drone killing and vice versa.
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toastie
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this effect in addition to the damage it causes to small units within 2 hexes, or instead of? In other words, is this a separate mode to defensive fire against small units, or is it a combined effect with the defensive fire?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a separate mode.

The IPG, in SFB, has two different modes: a defensive burst mode and a jamming mode. In Communique #35, the IPG in FC was only given the defensive burst mode. This is intended to give it the jamming mode, too.

The IPG can only be used in one mode in any given impulse. It can switch modes impulse to impulse, however, subject to whatever power it has left.
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toastie
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doh! If I had just managed to see the last line of Steve's post, I would have realized they are two separate functions. Thanks.
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pneumonic81
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally.

My observations months ago:

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1550

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1566

For the most part shot down however....
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't say "shot down". You experiences were a valuable data point. Being one of the first to test the Vudar in Federation Commander, you helped raise the issue.
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

being the first to ask the question often tends to get you shot down Smile
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Less to do with being the first to raise something, and more to do with how or or what was being raised and the solution to the perceived issue.

The current suggestion was based on a different perspective to the problem, and the fix was based on converting an sfb feature of the system/race rather than adding in a new offensive or anti-plasma system that never existed in sfb. When bringing in an SFB version of a system to FC then ideas on how to bring in the SFB functions are likely to be better accepted than adding in things that never existed. As noted in one of the threads you linked it was more a case of making a convincing argument as to what the problem was and why what you wanted made sense.
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pneumonic81
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was my understanding that adding the ECM like feature was out of the question, thus the alternative solutions. None of which I was married to.

I am actually suprised your not against this change to be honest. After reviewing the posts that we had back and forth it seemed to me that you where quite content for the vudar IPG to remain as-is. In your own words it didnt need an additional defensive ability (even tho it had that in SFB).

some of your quotes from that thread:

"I think you underestimate how good a defense system it is."

"The ESG is nice as an offensive weapon, but I prefer the IPG as a defensive weapon."

"The IPG makes perfect sense for the Vudar, their 'masters' use drones and their neigbours use fighters."

"Thats not important, whilst it may be nice to think that every system has a use against every other race, it is not necessary nor truly important."


These are just a few of the things you said in opposition to my ONLY point, which was the IPG was innadequate to the task of defending the Vudar ship in a well-balanced game. and I would like to point out, this IS a game, and as such balance needs to be preserved and new races should be creative and fun to play. The IPG was not fun to play, I hardly ever fired it in my testing.

Lastly, I am very pleased that the ECM option is being considered. I dont think it sounds too unbalancing and will allow the Vudar to be played with a wide variety of tactics. I personally never cared much for the plasma damage idea or the ship damage idea because they didnt reflect the spirit of this race. Its too bad that those were the points people latched on to when I was posting my ideas and playtest results.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I am actually suprised your not against this change to be honest. After reviewing the posts that we had back and forth it seemed to me that you where quite content for the vudar IPG to remain as-is. In your own words it didnt need an additional defensive ability (even tho it had that in SFB).

some of your quotes from that thread:

"I think you underestimate how good a defense system it is."

"The ESG is nice as an offensive weapon, but I prefer the IPG as a defensive weapon."

"The IPG makes perfect sense for the Vudar, their 'masters' use drones and their neigbours use fighters."

"Thats not important, whilst it may be nice to think that every system has a use against every other race, it is not necessary nor truly important."


What I said still holds, I don't think it 'needs' a new function, defensive or offensive per se, and certainly not in the way you were suggesting or for the reason you were arguing (essentially that it needs another function purely for sake of having another function). It is a good defensive system as is, so long as you view things from the perspective of the universe the game is set in - excellent anti drone/anti fighter when the primary races it faces use fighters and drones.

I only half agree with what the OP was saying the problem was (they fly like feds), however, IMHO that reasoning is moot. I don't think the suggestion that has been arrived at needs a balance reason or whatever to be accepted. I think it is a good idea to convert SFB aspects of a race/weapon irrespective of such arguments so long as the conversion is not complicated.

Not having the offensive ram aspect of an ESG would have been a bit unfortunate, but, if for some reason it couldn't be done whilst keeping to the streamlined ideals of FC, then I would not have been in favor of giving it some other compensating feature that it has never had (e.g. the anti plamsa rule). Whilst I never played Vudar in SFB (they arrived after I stopped playing) if as I gather Vudar have a similar ECM type ability in SFB then this seems a good idea even if it does not work precisely like it does in SFB - just as the ESG in FC doesn't work like it does in SFB it does a good enough job of reflecting it whilst being faster and easier to use than in SFB.
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