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sabre dance, trip and fall
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rockyr
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:11 pm    Post subject: sabre dance, trip and fall Reply with quote

I admit that hexgrids have always been my enemy (and my club does not want the added complications of hex-less play). I had a friend years ago who could see and read the grid so he was always in arc, but not I - or so it seemed.

Now, to the point.

At fleet scale, how many phaser-I + distrupter volleys can one expect to get with a Klingon D7 vs a Fed CA before the Fed closes in? Having to face within 60 degrees means getting a long range shot off early is easy, and so is turning about the first time to keep distance. Its getting in position to take a second shot and then getting away again that seems so unlikely to me. If moving 16 or less to be more nimble (3 hex turns + lots of sideslips), then the Fed can easily race up. If at 24 (with or without accelleration) , then the lateral 4 hexes allows the Fed to catch up readily. We all know how much 2 x+8 photons and some phasers hurts alot.

I have read several posts that say they can keep the distance. The only way I can see to do that is to use rear firing weapons only - and at along range, that is requires not just patience, but a lot of luck to cause any damage.

I can readily see the moment to charge in, if the Fed unleashed long range torpedoes, but keeping distance and causing damage for more than two passes is beyond me.


Then again, scenarios often dictate 10 turn lengths, so maybe that is as much as I can expect.

Comments or suggestions?

Rocky-still-very-much-the-"ensign"
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Last edited by rockyr on Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Canuck14
Ensign


Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 20
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:33 pm    Post subject: This almost seems like you respect the Fed. Reply with quote

It is not often I hear a person using respect when talking about the Feds. With my friends I was always the but of the jokes when it came to the luck of the torps (never lucky it seemed) and the ponderous turns of the Fed vs the Klingons. I have had some luck now that I have switched to FC but the only way I can keep the Klingon away from me is to always keep a photon in reserve. Every turn disruptors and a much tighter turning arc makes for a hard fight for me every time.
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rockyr
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:21 pm    Post subject: knife fight Reply with quote

Oh, I can twist and turn, dodge and strike in a knife fight with D7s vs the Feds, if I survive their first blast.

R
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Last edited by rockyr on Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kor
Ensign


Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 15
Location: Pasadena, Ca.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using the standard D7 v CA fight, I can fire four disruptors and five phasers 1s while still having enough power to go 26. If the fed wants to keep up, he can fire six phasers 1s and hold four standard photons, and I am not scared of standard torps. If he wants to overload, he will have to slow down to 16. If he overloads his torps and chases me, he can go 24 only if he fires no more than four phasers. If he starts getting too close, I can launch two drones (while facing him) on impulse 8, then launch two more on impulse 1 (follow in your first drones, so all four are in one hex) before turning away. if he keeps chasing me, he will have to deal with four drones. He will probably get one with the ADD, and another with his phaser 3s (burning another point of power). Leaving two for his phaser 1s or tractors, both using more power, and therefore slowing him down further. The point of the saber dance, is to keep picking on his #1 shield, doing more damage than he can get off each turn, while he can barely scratch me with only phasers. Once I have him sufficiently softened up, I can follow him in with four more drones, phasers, and overloaded disrupters. I want to be at range 8 on impulse 8, if the fed fires four overloaded photons at that range (which we really want, since they are notoriously inaccurate at that range), I can follow it up next turn with disruptors and phasers. if not, then his shields will already be down when I fly in closer.
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rockyr
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:56 pm    Post subject: dance or race? Reply with quote

Thanks, Kor, but that does sounds more like a straight race.

After your first volley, you give up 4-8 hexes to turn away, depending on the angle of the first shots. Later there will be at least 8 hexes lost to bring all the distrupters to bear again (less if you are willing to fire one and the FX phasers, which is not bad.)

All that seems like the Fed catches up with plenty of energy and firepower in the turn you move to re-engage.

One blast and keeping distance, easy.

A second blast and then getting away again? That is what I cannot see in terms of hexes.

But maybe the dance in FC is just that: shoot, scoot, return, shoot, then close...

I need to play more and experiment more.


R
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Last edited by rockyr on Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1545
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've not seen this attempted against a Klingon patient enough to play out the saber dance to its fullest, but what if the Fed limited firing overloaded photons to only a couple at a time in an effort to take down the D7's rear shield? That would make running away very difficult. The CA could then concentrate on using long range phaser fire to really cause problems. Obviously, luck would have to be in his favor at some point. Two hits in one volley will take down any D7 shield or at least severely weaken it if there is energy for reinforcement.

And until the CA takes damage, a high speed should be sufficient enough to avoid drones and force the D7 to use its energy in running.

Plus, as long as the CA has the energy for a HET, any photons it is holding or even its very potent phaser suite will always be a threat, even if it turns away.

In a running battle the direct fire photon has the edge IF luck holds.
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Kor
Ensign


Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 15
Location: Pasadena, Ca.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:24 am    Post subject: Re: dance or race? Reply with quote

rockyr wrote:
Thanks, Kor, but that does sounds more like a straight race.

After your first volley, you give up 4-8 hexes to turn away, depending on the angle of the first shots. Later there will be at least 8 hexes lost to bring all the distrupters to bear again (less if you are willing to fire one and the FX phasers, which is not bad.)

All that seems like the Fed catches up with plenty of energy and firepower in the turn you move to re-engage.

One blast and keeping distance, easy.

A second blast and then getting away again? That is what I cannot see in terms of hexes.

But maybe the dance in FC is just that: shoot, scoot, return, shoot, then close...

I need to play more and experiment more.


R

regarding the angle, you want to be approaching at an oblique, taking his volley on your 2 or 6 shield. You want to stay outside of his overload range and if he is not overloading, then his shots won't harm as much. If he's holding overloads, he is sacrificing eight points of power per turn. A fed CA has 28 points of power left, while your D7 has 26 points left (if you fire phasers and disrupters in the 9-15 range arc), and your drones will suck up another point from him when they impact. If he fires phasers (between 4-6) then he is not going to be going more than speed 23 without tapping into his batteries. You have 3 more movement points (5 max) to keep out of his overload range. If he is not overloading torps, then he can't even get through a shield in one volley unless he hits with 3 or more and phasers, and then he has to wait two turns before he can fire again. While your at knife fighting range with phasers and overloaded disruptors.
Approach on the oblique, offering your 2 or 6 shield, fire disruptors and phasers at range 15, and then accelerate while turning away. Your turn mode of 4 at 24 can be satisfied in one impulse with acceleration. Next turn, we decelerate and turn back at him to fire, and then turn away again. We fire drones that he will have to deal with, since he is closing with us, and that sucks up energy. If he is not firing phasers, then he is still only gaining a few hexes a turn, and is offering his 1 shield the whole time he is chasing us. Hitting with three of four disruptors (very reasonable odds), while averaging five points of phaser damage per turn, means 14 points a turn on his 1 shield at the 9-15 range mark. He will be left with 9 boxes crossed off per turn, or 5 and no batteries, further slowing him down, and thus allowing the saber dance to continue. Be patient and let him chase you, once that 1 shield is whittled down, we own him.
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rockyr
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am getting the hang of it after a few games. Shoot and turn away at 15 hexes, maximum accelleration, turn late in a turn and just enough to get angles and range, shoot, turn away again if the target is not seriously weakened. Watch to have 6 energy points... Use drones to keep them busy and hopefully using energy. Keep away, then dive in.

Thanks!

R
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captcorajus
Ensign


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A long time SFB player, the D7/ CA sabre dance is a familiar one. I've played both ships, and with FC.... and real time power allocation and direct targeting, its really something. This first essay will show you how to win using the feds.

First of all, when playing the Feds, I always make sure I have enough power for tractors. This will eliminate the drone threat and allow you to still fire all your phasers.

Second of all, it is important to note, that the phaser suite is the Fed's real tactical advantage, NOT the photons. The feds should be played like surgeons, gradually disarming their opponents so they simply lack the ability to mount an offensive.

Except for the klingon's forward shield, his shields are crap. A full volley on shields 2-6 at moderat range (8 hexes), even with standard photons will punch a hole in them. A quick look at the charts shows that even with a 50% hit ratio you can expect to score at least 34 hits on the Klingon. His shields only have 22 points on them... assuming he has full batteries and the power available, that's 3 for 25 points absorbed for 9 internal hits. Your goal is to score at least 12 internals in the first volley. With patience, skill and just a little luck this is very doable. This will give you two rolls on the DAC. A roll of 1,2 or 6 take out two phasers and a torp. You have a 50% chance to take out THREE phasers and TWO torps and a drone using direct targeting (Score 13 internals and you take out both drones). Thus, you can reasonably expect to effectively disarm the Klingon on one side of his ship!

Most Klingon players know that in order to get most of his weapons in arc he must approach on a oblique angle... which is what you want! He's going to voluntarily face you with his weak shields!

Once you have the Klingon disarmed on one side it is simply a matter maintaining speed. Screw the photons. Stick to his weakened side so he can't bring his weapons to bear, and ping him with you full phaser array at range. If you get another shot through the open shield target power. If your facing clean shields, target weapons and let spill over damage take out his phasers.

The problem with many fed players is that they rely on their photons too much. Most players expect the fed to come in on one turn armed for bear, blow his wad and run away till photons are rearmed. The photons are good for punching down a shield in a single volley, but the phaser suite is deadly and accurate. Use it! Doing things this way, you're not leaving once the photons are fired. your sticking around, sniping away (Just do 10 or more damage with you phasers, not difficult!) and reducing your opponent's ability to attack you.

Another tip... once he's disarmed on one side, you have plenty of time to take evasive action as he turns his ship around in an attempt to bring his remaining weapons to bear!

Winning with the Klingons is a little more challenging, but I'll get to that in my next post.
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Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1954
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A nice treatise, captcorajus, thanks. Having just taken a hammering as the Feds [ok, at the hands of the Tholians as it turns out], I will be sure and put into practice some of those ideas next time I play the Feds.

Just one point, though, about taking out his armament on one side - you can't always do that in FC as there is no directional phaser rule. A minor points, sure, but worth mentioning.

Anyway thanks for the posting, and we look forward to your thoughts on Klingon tactics Smile
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captcorajus
Ensign


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:

Just one point, though, about taking out his armament on one side - you can't always do that in FC as there is no directional phaser rule. A minor points, sure, but worth mentioning.



Ah... but let me point out to you I said "effectively", and "one side".... I didn't say the side facing you.

Which phasers go are a matter of circumstance and logic. In most cases, the front phasers will not be affected. On a clean ship, you can expect the waist phasers to go, which means the "weakend side" will be the rear arc.

If you've managed to snip previously, those phasers may be reduced, so you can expect one of the wing phasers to go. In any event, his arcs will be severely restricted, and it will be your task to remain in those arcs while continuing to snipe with your superior phaser cabability. Very Happy

Using this tactic I have found that I don't even allocate power to photons on the following turn, prefering to use it for speed and shield reinforcement.
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captcorajus
Ensign


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, how to win using the D7 versus the Fed CA.

First of all, the Fed out guns you, can take more internal hits, and his shields are better than yours. He does have one weakness... for all his offensive capability, most of it is directed forward. Your ship is also more maneuverable than his.

Your goal in the first part of the game then, will be to punch down that forward shield forcing him to fight on the oblique... which is YOUR game. Very Happy Your arcs are much better at that angle than his. Whereas, as the Fed you took away your opponent's ability to attack, as the Klingon you will have to be patient as you remove the Fed's ability to protect itself.

Remember, the Fed's power will be used up trying to arm those power sucking photons... so your secondary goal will be to force him to use power in other creative ways.

Lastly, remember, that if you close with the Fed, you are dead.

MAKE the Fed chase you. Stay at a range of 9-15 hexes, and approach on the oblique. Note, this tactic is time consuming, and if you loose patience the Fed will eat you for lunch.

Once the fed is facing you, and you're within 10-12 hexes, unload with your disruptors (standard), forward and wing phasers. Target weapons. You hit 66% of the time with your disruptors, and 50% of the time with you phasers at this range. You will likely get some splash damage, which has a 50% chance of being a phaser if you are close enough (10 hexes) to use direct targeting (33% if not).

Getting the phaser is a bonus. <snip>.

Now, turn away from him and fire waist phasers as you do. Turn around, rinse and repeat. Cool Always remember, that your turn mode at speed 16 and 24 is better than his. He can't catch you if you keep turning!! Very Happy

If at the end of combat, your ship is fairly clean, your front shield is perfect, but every other shield is a blackened mess, then you are doing it right!

Using Drones

The key to being effective with drones as a Klingon is timing. Try to time your closest approach to the Fed (9 hexes) towards the end of the turn (Impulse 8 preferable)... and then launch another set of drones on Impulse 1.

This tactic is EXTREMELY effective if you do this once the front shield is finally down. For maximum effect, I usually don't waste launching drones until that occurs anyway, as I will be taking evasive actions before then. Cool

What you do next depends on what the fed does. If he's moving fast, you know he isn't going to have power for overloads (or all of his photons), If he's moving slow, than you know that he's going to try to get his photons in this turn... maintain YOUR speed regardless. If he's slow, NOW would be a good time to spit out a suicide shuttle to go with the four drones he's facing. If the Fed can't face you, he can't fight effectively.

With his front shield down it is going to be difficult for him to close with you, and get his weapons in for maximum effect... but don't get greedy, he still bites. The key here is to slowly take away the Fed's ability to defend itself. Once defenseless, and fighting on the oblique, you can use your superior maneuverablity to cut in close for that kill shot.

I don't think I have to tell you that if he's within 8 hexes, and turns that damaged front shield towards you, overload and fire everything. Very Happy


Last edited by captcorajus on Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 641

PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

captcorajus wrote:
Getting the phaser is a bonus. It costs 4 points of power to repair the weapon...


It doesn't cost any power to repair. But I liked your tactics.
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captcorajus
Ensign


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savedfromwhat wrote:
captcorajus wrote:
Getting the phaser is a bonus. It costs 4 points of power to repair the weapon...


It doesn't cost any power to repair. But I liked your tactics.


Don't know where I got that.... I wasn't rule looking when I wrote that. Shocked That was off the top of my head. I must be getting old....lol
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rockyr
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:15 pm    Post subject: repair not power Reply with quote

4 repair points for weapons, not power maybe?

Thanks to all for the great commentaries here. Much more to think about...

R
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Last edited by rockyr on Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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