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ESGs and directed targeting
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:32 am    Post subject: ESGs and directed targeting Reply with quote

I know that ESGs can't use directed targeting.

I also know that if you do an offensive ESG 'ram', and fire other direct-fire weapons at the same time, they are combined into a single volley.

From this, then, I assume that any volley that includes an ESG ram cannot use directed targeting, in the same way that volleys including overloads cannot use directed targeting.

That was the way we played it, anyway.

The question, therefore, is - was our interpretation of the rules correct?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree with that interpretation.

Any time a volley of damage includes weapons fire that cannot use directed targetting, then the whole volley cannot use directed targetting.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike: Talk to me about this one. I thought you could split the directed and non-directed part. I don't think the design intent was to punish people for using an ESG by preventing their phasers from using directed targeting.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I will send an email on this in a few hours.

I will post the results afterwards.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, thanks guys.

Could I make a suggestion: perhaps the reason for adding the volleys into one is to limit the reinforcement, which is fine.

However the directed targeting could still be allowed for the direct-fire weapons part of the volley, even when it's only one volley for reinforcement purposes.

Hope this is clear Wink
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So why was it the intention to punish those using overloaded disr/phot or whatever, but not esg. What about hellbores, they are non targetable even if not overloaded, can I target phasers at the same time as hellbores?

Also if they are one volley then why is the non targetable part the bit that takes out the shields, and the targetable part the part that does internals?

I'd prefer to keep it simple and streamlined, i.e you keep it as no targeting where it would be combined with non-targeted damage, rather than start complicating it with 'exceptions to the rule'
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OGOPTIMUS
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
However the directed targeting could still be allowed for the direct-fire weapons part of the volley, even when it's only one volley for reinforcement purposes.

Hope this is clear Wink


But then how do you separate the damage done by directed targeting vs the part that's not when it's one volley that you roll for all at once?
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OGOPTIMUS wrote:
But then how do you separate the damage done by directed targeting vs the part that's not when it's one volley that you roll for all at once?

Good point. I guess you'd have to just roll the ESG stuff separately; you'd know how much each had scored.

Of course this is FC, we still need to keep it simple! Smile
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two issues at conflict in here. The first is the implicit extension of (3D4d). The second is the nature of the ESG.

Rule (3D4d) says that directed targetting cannot be used if the volley includes overloaded weapons. While I know that we are talking about ESGs, the issue is that ESGs and hellbores have been special cased to work like overloaded weapons, as it regards the restriction on directed targetting.* So, we do have the precident that if a volley includes weapons fire that cannot use directed targetting, then the entire volley cannot include directed targetting.

ESGs, among all of the weapons in Federation Commander, works very differently from how it works in SFB. In SFB, ESGs are an "energy shell" that actually hits its target in the movement part of an impulse, not as a result of weapons fire. In that case, ESG damage was always applied completely separately from any other kind of damage. In Federation Commander, that is not the case. When used in an offensive burst, the ESG is, for all intents and purposes, a direct fire weapon. As such, it gets lumped in with all other direct fire weapons that are fired in a given impulse.

So, that is why I said that firing phasers and an ESG in a single volley disqualifies all of the fire from using directed targetting. It is just a direct application of (3D4d).

Now, if there is a need for adding a special case for ESG fire, that can be done. But right now, that is not how it works.

[*] Yes, this is a great addition to the CRUL.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is a volley defined as all weapons that hit a ship on the same shield at the same time? or all weapons fired from one ship at the same time, in other words can i pop an ESG at a range one hostile then do directed targeting at a range two hostile with my phasers and disruptors?
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
[*] Yes, this is a great addition to the CRUL.

lol You beat me to it Laughing
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savedfromwhat wrote:
is a volley defined as all weapons that hit a ship on the same shield at the same time? or all weapons fired from one ship at the same time, in other words can i pop an ESG at a range one hostile then do directed targeting at a range two hostile with my phasers and disruptors?

A volley (3A4) is "all of the direct-fire weapons fired by a single ship during a single impulse at a single target" that hit a single shield.*

So, if your Lyran CA is firing a ESG burst at the Kzinti FF at range 1 while firing disruptors and phasers at the Kzinti CL at range 2, then that is two separate volleys. The ESG burst at the Kzinti FF is a single volley that cannot use directed damage. The phasers and disruptors fired at the Kzinti CL is a second volley that can use directed damage if all of the disruptors are normal loads, or cannot use directed damage if any of the disruptors were overloaded.

[*] Crap. Another CRUL item ...
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....and as a corollary, then, let's say you have a L-CA at range 1 from a Z-FF, and a L-BCH at Range 3 from the same Z-FF, both directly down the shield #1 hexrow.

If both ships fire at once at the Z-FF with direct-fire weapons, then each is treated as a separate volley and can be reinforced against separately.

Incidentally, it's been stated before [probably by Pat Doyle] but if you have one ship firing overloads and the other firing normal weapons, you should declare the 'normal' salvo as directed damage if you want such. You then resolve the overloaded salvo first.

Then, once the shield is down or at least severely battered, you do your directed fire salvo. This is legal within the rules and should be a standard practice will probably replace the Mizia in Fed Commander.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am reviewing this, but I have a lot to finish today (six product covers, three press releases, and that's just the non-complex parts) and won't have an answer for a few days.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the new Communique:

"(3D4d) If the volley includes weapons which cannot use
directed targeted (e.g., ESGs), then score their damage
(on the same shield) as a separate volley."

which has emerged from this thread, which is why I'm posting here.

...so can we reinforce vs. each of these 'volleys' separately?
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