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Direct Fire Drone Rules
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Magnum357
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, I find these Direct Drone rules interesting, but as others have pointed out, they seem to make them a little "too" complicated. Lots of other factors seem to make them more complicated then I would like (like Terrain for example).

Also, as I think about these type of Drones, is 12 points of damage a little too much? They sound like a better deal then a Photon. And what if a ship turns signifcantly (high turn mode targets) do they still impact the intended sheild? What about Gunboats? Do they use these rules too?
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are Drone armed fighters going to be officially released for FedCom? If not I don't see the point of including any direct fire drone rules at all. The way they stand they seem to get away from the spirit of the game (basically turning drones into a completely different 12 damage weapon). If they are being released for BoM then leave the rule as is (it's called borders of madness for a reason). Please read these previous comments as suggestions and not criticism, just wanted to get my idea out there in as concise and clear method as possible.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on observations of how SVC deals with these types of things, I suspect he is looking for something quick, clean, and easy. All of the suggestions so far seem pretty complicated. That is not in the spirit of Federation Commander.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....this is for Borders of Madness, isn't it? Please say yes?
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't say they are complicated. The original suggestion isn't excactly complicated either, but it does result in having to start recording via some mechansim things that happen in 1 impulse that will be resolved in another. Taken in the context of drone armed fighters in BOM which seem likely to be from full CVs with 12 fighters plus other drone chucking vessels then that could be leading to quite a lot of things that are being kept track of off map. It's the 'paper work' that creeps in to the game that just doesn't work for me. That is why I'd prefer to, as someone else put it, stop pussy footing around with half direct fire and make it more like direct fire with the impact being done there and then.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
I wouldn't say they are complicated. The original suggestion isn't excactly complicated either, but it does result in having to start recording via some mechansim things that happen in 1 impulse that will be resolved in another. Taken in the context of drone armed fighters in BOM which seem likely to be from full CVs with 12 fighters plus other drone chucking vessels then that could be leading to quite a lot of things that are being kept track of off map. It's the 'paper work' that creeps in to the game that just doesn't work for me. That is why I'd prefer to, as someone else put it, stop pussy footing around with half direct fire and make it more like direct fire with the impact being done there and then.

You could always give the excuse that the fighters carry 'special' hypervelocity drones, like ADDs or those ridiculously powerful guys in SFB Module C4 with the megaspeed drones.

And then just treat them as direct fire weapons, and adjust the warhead strength as required to maintain balance. This can also be 'excused' by saying that the drive unit for those drones takes up space on the frame equivalent to [insert correct phrase for reducing the warhead strength].

Again, this is BoM, isn't it? Confused
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
.....this is for Borders of Madness, isn't it? Please say yes?

Yes. This is all for Borders of Madness.

Only Hydrans have fighters in Federation Commander. This is for Borders of Madness, which is the only place drone-armed fighters will appear. (Indeed, where there are any non-Hydran fighters at all.)

EDIT: I editted the explanatory message at the beginning to make this clear. Sorry for not doing that in the first place!
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Yes. This is all for Borders of Madness.

<*Collapses in relief*>
Thanks Mike!
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Dal Downing
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Storyelf, you seemed overly worried about tracking this off board. If it is going to require a chart to track impulses to hit or whatever wouldn't that chart be added to the Fighter's Ship Card like a Plasma Warhead chart?

I like the ideal about if your target is moving away from you as fast or faster than the drone you can't shoot or just remove it from play. What about if you target Turns a new shield to face you which shield will the drone hit. What if the Target HETs. Also what about Speed 32 Drones/Plasma Ds are they going to get a Longer range and speed 16 drones going to get a shorter range?

On the ideal of reducing warhead strength while I see the reason for it I don't think we will see it happening. If Fed Com is being used to speed up a SFB Fleet Battle for a campaign in SFB, you have already changed the balance and flow once with direct fire fighter weapon (and again that is not a bad thing.) Then you are going to change it yet again by modifying the damage dealt. I maybe wrong but I can not think of another Weapon System in game that was reduced in damage like the ideal people are kicking around for drones.

Also since this is Borders rule are you going to allow some one to chunk drones out at range then follow them in so they can launch a second wave with direct fire fighter weapons?

Also why would people want this to apply to Gunboats they really are just tiny ships that will probably have a Energy/Power Track chart and all right?
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Requete
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Joined: 15 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
Based on observations of how SVC deals with these types of things, I suspect he is looking for something quick, clean, and easy. All of the suggestions so far seem pretty complicated. That is not in the spirit of Federation Commander.


Not to contradict you, Mike, but I think my suggestion was not complicated. Rolling to hit on a chart seems pretty simple to me. That's how we do photons and the like as well.

The left hand column would be range, and you would cross index with the speed of target to find the number you had to roll (like "1-3", etc.). If the drone was fired from the target's FA, you shift one column to the left (better chance), and if the drone was fired from the target's RA, you shift one column to the right (worse).

Seems like duck soup to me.
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Hod K'el
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: DFD for BOM Reply with quote

You know, I kind of like the idea of a direct fire drone that hits with 4 points of damage on a roll of 1-4 on a 1D6 coming from a fighter. Makes a ZY just like a ZD. Same basic rules!

Now what happens with fighter verses fighter?
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dal Downing wrote:
On the ideal of reducing warhead strength while I see the reason for it I don't think we will see it happening.

That was just an idea I threw into the melting pot, as it were. This forum is a fertile ideas patch and I'm just doing my bit in that respect Smile

As for facing shields, target turning and HETs, you could let the target take the hit on one of the three 'facing' shields, like the three shields that a PPD would hit.

Alternatively, there was something in one of the early Designer's Edition SFB modules about direct-fire drones. This was in the Fighters and Shuttles - Supplement #1 module. There was a rule in that about letting the target have a free turn in order to bring a different shield to bear, either HET or normal turn as required. And it was allowed to do that after direct-fire drone attacks were announced, in violation of its normal turn mode requirement. This was no doubt to simulate the maneuver of the target while at the same time decluttering the map.

I wouldn't have thought that it would be ok to publish a scan of those three pages, but I'm sure SVC will have a copy and then it's up to him.

Again, more ideas for the melting pot.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dal Downing wrote:
Storyelf, you seemed overly worried about tracking this off board. If it is going to require a chart to track impulses to hit or whatever wouldn't that chart be added to the Fighter's Ship Card like a Plasma Warhead chart?


I wouldn't use the term worried. If it happens it happens, it just means the mechanics don't work for me - a purely personal opinion of course.

The how we track it is not my issue, but the fact that it happens. Even now with FC I find the drones/plasma can get a bit of a drag once there are more more than a couple of ships firing them, on the one hand there is the extra clutter which is what the direct fire rules are trying to avoid, but also the constant checking which drone is going for whom and when it was launched etc. The game starts to lose the streamlined feel when you are at the point of spending time checking the answer to such questions.

In some ways I think the proposed direct drone rules are worse as there is no reminder on the map that in the next couple of impulses there are some drones to resolve. I'd prefer a mechanic that has it all resolved there and then, declare fire, resolve non-target defensive fire, impact. It just feels a lot more streamlined to me, I can handle a bit of simple maths and a dice roll at the point of fire if I don't then have extra drone tracks and records and things to remember in 2 impulses time.

Again a purely personal perpective, but the 'paper work' to track things became as much the bane of SFB as any complications in the rules.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Again a purely personal perpective, but the 'paper work' to track things became as much the bane of SFB as any complications in the rules.

Laughing I remember. Somehow, just one clipboard wasn't quite enough.....
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Barry Kirk
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barry Kirk wrote:
If the whole idea is to reduce map clutter. How about reducing the duration of fighter launched drones to 2 FC impulses? Yes there are a lot of drones out there, but they don't last very long.

It kinda of makes sense. In order to keep fighters light, the drones have to be made lighter. Therefore, reduce the amount of fuel on board the drones.

Yes, I know that it turns the drone armed fighter from a long range weapon into a short range weapon, but shouldn't fighters have limitations like that.

For PF's increase the duration of the drones to 3 to 4 impulses. Making them a slightly better standoff weapon.

OK... Ducks...


I'm reposting my earlier post which may have been missed by everyone posting here.

While it doesn't reduce map clutter, it does limit it to a 1 or 2 impulses.

Could someone tell me if the problem with massive amounts of drones on the board from fighters happens when fighters launch 2 turns before the drones hit?
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