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Direct Fire Drone Rules
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malleman
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am assuming the use of of SFB J1.333 (under Shuttlecraft and Fighters--Crippling-Sensors) . I may not be correct however when converting this to FC BoM. That is why I wanted to ask an expert Very Happy .
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

malleman wrote:
If a fighter launches a drone in FC BoM rules what happens to the drone if:
1. The fighter docks
2. The fighter is tractored
3. The fighter becomes crippled
4. The fighter is destroyed before the 2nd impulse (for clearity)

My answers are:
1. This question is a bit ambiguous, as the fighter could dock, or land. If the fighter is simply docked, the drone is still controlled. If the fighter lands, then the drone is no longer controlled and is destroyed.
2. The drone is still controlled.
3. The drone is still controlled. Yes, there are limitations on the fighter after it is crippled. It may not fire another drone. But, any drone in flight can still be controlled by a crippled fighter.
4. The drone is no longer controlled and is destroyed.
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malleman
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks terryoc & mjwest,

Now I understand how my questions were confusing! I shouild have used the term landing when I used the term docking. I was not thinking of mech links since they have not been introuduced yet. For the record I also get fussed at for using the term firing instead of launching. It is good to have someone who sees the whole picture Very Happy .
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC, in FC a shuttle can "dock" to a ship even without a mech-link. Shuttles are treated like ships for this purpose. Can be useful when you need to transfer marines or something in an emergency but the shuttle boxes are full or disabled.
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tort518
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please note, I haven't read the entire thread, only the first couple pages.

I would recommend treating the direct fire drones somewhat like plasma torpedoes.

Limit the launch range to 3 hexes against ships or objects traveling speed 16 or below.
Then in the defensive fire phase have each point of phaser fire reduce the drone warhead by 3 points and allow anti-drones to take them out like normal.
Tractoring works like normal.
ESG works like phaser fire.
etc.

Any thoughts?
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Hod K'el
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:22 pm    Post subject: DFD Reply with quote

I am at work so this will be blunt to make it fast...read pages four and five. After this read the next sentence here:

Won't work. The fighters will not survive to get that close. To prove the point, play it out yourself. And if you have to play by yourself, get mean, get nasty! Pull every trick in the book...and some that aren't in the book!
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Barry Kirk
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike and I discussed DFD on talkshoe this past Thursday. The podcast is available at www.talkshoe.com topic #17702

One of the possible ways mentioned of implementing DFD is as follows.

1) Max launch range is 8.
2) Speed could be 24 or 32.
2) When launched, a counter is placed on the map which does not move.
3) During defensive fire phase of the impulse after launch, if the target is within 3 hexes for 24 speed or 4 hexes for 32 speed drones of the launch counter. The drone impacts on the shield facing the point of launch counter. ( We still need to determine how to resolve shield boundary conditions. )

4) During defensive fire phase of the 2nd impulse after launch, if the target is within 6 hexes for 24 speed or 8 hexes for 32 speed drones of the launch counter. The drone impacts on the shield facing the point of launch counter.

5) If the drone does not impact during the defensive fire phase of the 2nd impulse after launch, it goes away.

This system does give the target flexibility to react and run away from a drone. It could possibly be used for fighter launched plasma.

Since, FC treats drones differently than SFB, namely in that seeking weapons DON'T lose a movement when doing a HET. This should system should be very accurate in simulating a non direct fire drone in terms of if it impacts or not. There may or may not be some slight differences in the exact shield impacted though.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm...sounds interesting.

Let's assume speed 32 for the DF drones for this case.

A fighter group launches some DF drones at target A that is 1 hex away and moving speed 24. The next impulse, target A accelerates to 24+ and turns away. At the end of the next impulse we find that it is 5 hexes from the DF drone launch hex, therefore the DF drones do not impact yet.

On the next impulse, target A accelerates again to 24+ and at the end of the impulse we find that it is now 9 hexes away. The DF drones do not impact and are removed from the map.

Speed 24 DF drones would have the same outcome, except that targets moving at speed 24 would not need to accelerate and speed 16 targets would.

About the only way for DF drones to ever hit something would be if the target was charging straight on and was bent on maintaining its course. But then, that is the story for regular drones, too.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
But then, that is the story for regular drones, too.

And, isn't that the whole point? Very Happy
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly seeking weapons bog this game down a lot. After playing Star Fleet battles you realize a duel takes just as long in both games. Ships will always outrun drones in Fedcom, speed 8 or 16 drones are a joke they wouldn't have a chance. But, in Star Fleet battles where ships are limited in their speed quite a bit more, things change. Battles with seeking weapons are still somewhat interesting but when played by two skilled and knowledgeable players seeking weapons tend to be more about outlasting your opponent then anything else. The plasma races have a much harder time (even though SVC says they are the very strong I disagree totally). this is still about drones right...
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Side question... MJ, is there anything special about fighter drones in SFB, like do you only get damage 6 warheads that are speed 32 or something, in other words what are you giving up for the extra weapons platforms on the fighters?
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tort518
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: DFD Reply with quote

Hod K'el wrote:
I am at work so this will be blunt to make it fast...read pages four and five. After this read the next sentence here:

Won't work. The fighters will not survive to get that close. To prove the point, play it out yourself. And if you have to play by yourself, get mean, get nasty! Pull every trick in the book...and some that aren't in the book!


In most instances I would agree, but with minor exception, Hydran Stingers are already working under the 3 hex range limit. Wouldn't this make them close to the same? The Stinger has 10 points of damage it can take and the Kzinti fighter has 13 damage it can take (based on the ssd in Communique #39?).
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malleman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barry Kirk have you tried your adaption for the DFD rules? Just curious for any results. Maybe next time our group meets we can try them out. I do think the key to make direct fire drones reasonable may lie in the counter solution.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savedfromwhat wrote:
Side question... MJ, is there anything special about fighter drones in SFB, like do you only get damage 6 warheads that are speed 32 or something, in other words what are you giving up for the extra weapons platforms on the fighters?

No. Fighters and ships use the same drones. Yes, there are dozens of combinations, and fighters may only use a subset of these combinations. Even so, those that can be used by fighters are just "drones" used by both ships and fighters. There are no "fighter-only" drones in SFB.

(This is even true of "dogfight" drones. Those drones are also used by ships under certain circumstances.)
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Barry Kirk
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

malleman wrote:
Barry Kirk have you tried your adaption for the DFD rules? Just curious for any results. Maybe next time our group meets we can try them out. I do think the key to make direct fire drones reasonable may lie in the counter solution.


Actually, it wasn't my idea, it came from Mike West.

However, we were combining this with a fighter only drone variant. This would be the Direct Fire Drone variant of the fighter drone.

It has an endurance of 2 impulses rather than 3 turns for standard drones.

Truth be told, I'm not sure if the 2 impulse duration is just associated with fighter Direct Fire Drones or if it's something that was incorporated in Borders Of Madness for all drone equipped fighters.

Obviously the whole idea for Direct Fire Drones is to reduce map clutter, and if the drones retained their full 3 turns of endurance, it just wouldn't work.

From a does the game make sense point of view, limiting fighter drones to 2 impulses endurance makes perfect sense.

If they had 3 turns of endurance, wouldn't it be better and cheaper to have special Scatter Pack only shuttles instead of fighters?

A Scatter Pack can hold a lot more drones than most fighters and has a faster firing rate. Since both packs and fighters can't launch within 8 impulses of launch, that limitation is the same.

Fighters do have phasers, but that is not worth the added expense versus a scatter pack.

If you turn around and say that ALL drones fired by shuttles, be it Scatter Pack or Fighter have a 2 impulse endurance, then Scatter Packs become virtually useless, and Fighters make sense. The Scatter Packs would have to be launched really close to the enemy or they would be too easy to avoid.

If launched really close to the enemy, it would be a simple matter to destroy them before they could blossum. Fighters on the other hand would be justifiable because they could survive long enough to fire there drones and they would be fast enough to be launched at some range and still be able to close.
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