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Poll: What would you pay for PDFs?
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What is the MOST you would you pay for a set of the 72 color PDFs for FCB2?
$100
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
$75
4%
 4%  [ 2 ]
$50
12%
 12%  [ 6 ]
$25
32%
 32%  [ 16 ]
$10
18%
 18%  [ 9 ]
I would rather pay $100 for a set of real color-laminated cards.
32%
 32%  [ 16 ]
Total Votes : 50

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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Master wrote:

Steve as a former Game store owner I can say you will lose money. You are losing money as I write. Gamers are well known for a number of things. Spending money like Congress is not one of them. One guy buys the book and out comes a copier for the rest of the group.



Anecdotal evidence followed by my anecdotal evidence. The gamers I know may not all by so flush they can buy everything, however, they are sufficiently 'into' gaming that large amounts of their spare money goes into gaming. If something looks worthwhile I don't want photocopies of it, neither do most gamers I know.

That is not to say there aren't a lot of copies floating around but in my personal experience, those copies are with people who would not have bought the item anyway, i.e. there is no lost money per se. Taking FC in particular, the group I play only has one person without the game, the rest of us have everything covered with our own purchased items, several times over between us. The one person who hasn't bought the game does have a copy of the main rule book, but he has never intended on buying it and still isn't, the odd occasion he plays FC not being justification for spending that sort of money. He spends his money on other games that he prefers and plays more often.

Was copying the book for that person wrong? it was technically illegal, but to say SVC lost money, only via the most warped argument could you say you lost out on the money he would never have spent. Whilst I can certainly understand SVCs desire to protect his IP and obtain his income from it, you probably also need to consider what the other extreme would be where via some mechanism it is not possible to copy - potential lack of critical mass.

Hypothetical point, I like the game and want to play it more and am plenty interested in buying everything that comes out for it IF I have people to play against, rather than it just be a never played game in the depths of the garage. SFB/FC is a pretty rare game here in the UK. If getting an opponent means giving him a copy should do I say no on principle and hence lose SVC the money I would certainly spend on all the expansions, or should I say yes and lose him the zero money that the other guy would have spent?

Quote:
It's the Gamers like me who do not like depending on Joe Bob to bring his Copy. I like to have them all on my shelf for reference or play ready. These are the people who you make the money off of.


True IMO. But I would say that the corollary of that is that SVC isn't losing that much money 'cos the people he makes the money off are already buying the product. The people who aren't are probably never going to.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
That is not to say there aren't a lot of copies floating around but in my personal experience, those copies are with people who would not have bought the item anyway, i.e. there is no lost money per se.

You dismiss anecdotal evidence and instead substitute it with outright opinion. Sorry, but that is not terribly useful.

Quote:
Was copying the book for that person wrong? it was technically illegal, but to say SVC lost money, only via the most warped argument could you say you lost out on the money he would never have spent.

First, it is not "technically illegal", it is out and out "illegal".

Second, advertising that you are making illegal copies of a games rulebook on that game publishers forum is just a bad idea and in very poor taste. Please do not ever do that again.

Third, the whole argument is nonsense. If he doesn't like the game enough to buy the rulebook, he doesn't need one. He can just use yours while he is there. If he does, in fact, like the game enough to want a rulebook, he can buy just the rulebook. It only costs $10 (for the rulebooks from either Klingon Border or Romulan Border), or he can get the whole Reference Rulebook for $15.

Quote:
If getting an opponent means giving him a copy ...

This is a totally specious argument. You do NOT have to copy your rulebook for your opponent. You can either lend him yours, have him buy just the rulebook, or give him a copy of First Missions. ADB has bent over backwards to make the FC rules completely accessible. There is no justification for "needing" to make copies of the rulebook.

Quote:
But I would say that the corollary of that is that SVC isn't losing that much money 'cos the people he makes the money off are already buying the product. The people who aren't are probably never going to.

That is a massive, unsupported opinion that has no justification other than your opinion. It is not enough of a reason to support illegal copying or to engage in it yourself.
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djdood
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:

Quote:
If getting an opponent means giving him a copy ...

This is a totally specious argument. You do NOT have to copy your rulebook for your opponent. You can either lend him yours, have him buy just the rulebook, or give him a copy of First Missions. ADB has bent over backwards to make the FC rules completely accessible. There is no justification for "needing" to make copies of the rulebook.


Indeed.

If an occasional opponent could benefit from having his own rulebook and doesn't want to buy one, then buy one for him. I have. Twice.

Anything less is literally taking money from a Mom and Pop business.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, if a person accepts a copy of a rulebook, that says that they are "interested enough" in it. They should buy the rulebook.

If someone wants it, they should buy it.

If they want to try it out, they should get First Missions for free.

That's what I did and what others in our group did. After they had seen First Missions, if they were interested enough to play more than just with someone who owned the game materials, they purchased on their own.
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djdood
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did it to "grow opponents". They had a passing interest in the game. I wanted them to feel nothing was in their way to understanding it and playing more (since it is my game of choice). They weren't interested enough to go download First Missions for themselves, but when I bought them a cheap copy of FC:Academy they were willing to give the rules a read-through away from the game table and they came back a little more enthused and much more ready to play.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets clear up something straight away, I have never been in to piracy of music, computer games or FC. Most especially mass downloadable copying. I have had long arguments with my sister in the past about the wrongs of pirated music. I've spent £000s of pounds on original computer games over the years, and more £000s of pounds on original board games etc (I've never really been into music). However, the Music and computer game industry tend to discredit their own arguments by making out that every copy was a lost sale. You can only 'lose' a sale if you would have made it other wise, it's a fallacy to say that X downloaded a song for free, we would have made money if he didn't get it for free. If he had to pay for it he may never have bought it, it wasn't worth it to him when it had a price.


Quote:
Quote:
That is not to say there aren't a lot of copies floating around but in my personal experience, those copies are with people who would not have bought the item anyway, i.e. there is no lost money per se.

You dismiss anecdotal evidence and instead substitute it with outright opinion. Sorry, but that is not terribly useful.


Huh. I didn't dismiss anecdotal evidence, I merely pointed out that that post and that statement by me were anecdotal. where was the dismissal? The conclusions I draw from the evidence I've seen is not the same as the conclusion drawn by the other poster from the evidence he has seen, I did not simply 'dismiss' his evidence, given they are both stated to be anecdotal that is not exactly feasible. The very definition is one of non-scientific observations, or conclusions based on evidence that can't scientifically be shown to actually follow. What I said is not 'outright opinion', it is based on my own actual observations, in the same way as the earlier poster came to conclusions based on his own personal experience. Neither of us could prove the point on the evidence presented, I simply acknowledged that by making it clear I was providing it as anecdote.


Just out of interest, why didn't you jump down the throat of that poster for giving his anecdotal evidence (aka personal opinion), bias towards that view point?

Quote:

Second, advertising that you are making illegal copies of a games rulebook on that game publishers forum is just a bad idea and in very poor taste. Please do not ever do that again.


What! where did I say I made a copy for any one. You twist my statement then accuse me of making illegal copies as well, if you think discussing things that happen whether we like it or not is bad taste (censoring discussion of such seems a bit of an own goal), then you might want to consider that falsely accusing someone of a criminal offense (on a public forum no less) is really bad taste, and technically illegal in some jurisdictions (or just plain illegal). Just for clarification I have never copied any FC stuff for anyone. Neither do I have any copies myself. I'd suggest either rewording what you said if you meant something else or apologising if you just misread my post.

Quote:

Third, the whole argument is nonsense. If he doesn't like the game enough to buy the rulebook, he doesn't need one. He can just use yours while he is there. If he does, in fact, like the game enough to want a rulebook, he can buy just the rulebook. It only costs $10 (for the rulebooks from either Klingon Border or Romulan Border), or he can get the whole Reference Rulebook for $15.


Or he could spend the money on things he wants, and we could play them. Ignore the right or wrong for the moment (which is not the same as legal/illegal), we don't play often enough for the rules to sink in with someone who isn't that into FC. Slowing down the limited play sessions with somoeone who doesn't know the rules and therefore is also bad at any tactics was just not working very well. However, once he got a photo copy (via what ever route, and it wasn't me) and digested the rules at home things have gone much better. It wouldn't surprise me if he would happily not play FC and play other stuff that he is more into instead, but as part of the gaming group he plays FC because we want to. If he turned round and said he would prefer to play other stuff it is quite possible we would. That would be my only FC sessions over with.

Quote:
Quote:
If getting an opponent means giving him a copy ...

This is a totally specious argument. You do NOT have to copy your rulebook for your opponent. You can either lend him yours, have him buy just the rulebook, or give him a copy of First Missions. ADB has bent over backwards to make the FC rules completely accessible. There is no justification for "needing" to make copies of the rulebook.


No I don't have to copy my book. I might be tempted to lend it if it was just a brief period of time, but beyond that I cannot dictate to anyone what they or do not do. First missions may be ok if you don't want to know all the rules and work out all the tactics that they open up.

Quote:
Quote:
But I would say that the corollary of that is that SVC isn't losing that much money 'cos the people he makes the money off are already buying the product. The people who aren't are probably never going to.

That is a massive, unsupported opinion that has no justification other than your opinion. It is not enough of a reason to support illegal copying or to engage in it yourself.


On its own, yes it is massive unsupported opinion. However, given the statement made:

Quote:
It's the Gamers like me who do not like depending on Joe Bob to bring his Copy. I like to have them all on my shelf for reference or play ready. These are the people who you make the money off of.


It is not unreasonable to say the corollary is what I said above (and i did prefix with 'I would say'). Debateable of course, massive unsupported opinon?! I read the above as saying basically that those of us who want the game, have bought the game. It seems a reasonable follow on to say what I did in that case. That to a large extent if they haven't bought the game they probably are not going to. If that wasn't what was meant then obvioulsy it might not be such an obvious follow on, and re-reading it I'm not quite sure what it is saying, but I think it still says what I thought.

I have no idea what it is like to find players over your way, I bought the initial couple of klingon boxes (£60) but it took me months to find someone to play against (an existing FC player). After finding someone to play against, and it then being worth me buying more stuff I bought all the other 'attack' products and a few boosters, and even a mini box (£300 give or take). There are several other boosters, and the breifings I am pondering on, but given how infrequently we play I've not yet considered it worth shelling out more (about £120 currently) when I could spend it on games that I might be playing more often. Add on War and peace to that when it arrives.

If the others in the group offered to make a copy for me of anything I didn't have I would refuse. I might borrow it for a read, or look over it whilst playing, but if I wanted it I would buy it. The others FC fans in our group, I believe, are basically the same, they would buy what they want rather than have a copy. On the other hand than they are geograhically better placed and meet much more often so may well just lend item to each other anyway. In other words, as the above quote seemed to be saying, those of whose who want the game already buy it rather than copy it.

For me personally the price isn't an issue (within reason), the issue is I try to avoid spending money on stuff that is not going to be used much (or at all). I have a good number of board games that still have unpunched counters etc from 20 years ago - wasted money.

If our player with a copy didn't have a copy then our group might not be playing FC, speculation of course, but not to far fectched. I would rather play something else as a group than leave someone out.

Cost of him not having that copy = potential lost customer (me).

Ok I'm a very tiny sample, hardly enough to come to any generalised conclusions. And the few hundred dollars may not exactly cause SVC any lost tears.

Those who claim that copying benefits companies ('I like this band so i'll buy the next album myself' type of argument) are quite probably equally as guilty of exagerating their case as the industries arguments against copying. Yes, it is another totally personal opinion, but I sincerely believe that the truth (in commercial terms) lies somewhere in between, some copying leads to increased sales some copying leads to lost sales and that some copying leads to neither. I'm not going to make a guess as to the net affect for any industry though.

And finally, yes, I agree with SVC in his previous post - go out and try to work out properly which is best for his business, not simply take whatever any one here says. However, please don't censor people who may be providing at least some honest facts and anecdotes about what is happening, whether what is happening is liked or not.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Just out of interest, why didn't you jump down the throat of that poster for giving his anecdotal evidence (aka personal opinion), bias towards that view point?

Quote:
Second, advertising that you are making illegal copies of a games rulebook on that game publishers forum is just a bad idea and in very poor taste. Please do not ever do that again.


What! where did I say I made a copy for any one.


What I was reacting to was this statement:
Quote:
Was copying the book for that person wrong? it was technically illegal, but to say SVC lost money, only via the most warped argument could you say you lost out on the money he would never have spent.

By my reading, that is an admission of providing the copy. If not, at least in participating in the copying. If I misread it, sorry. But a simple parsing of the quote implies first person.

That is the reason I reacted. Making the arguments for or against illegal copying is one thing. Admitting you have done so is another thing completely. Had I not seen what (in my reading) was an admission of actually doing it, I probably would not have replied at all.

So, if you are not copying the rulebook for others, then I apologize for reacting harshly.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:


So, if you are not copying the rulebook for others, then I apologize for reacting harshly.


No prob, and apologies for maybe not being clear that I was refering to the actual act of copying, and not the who.


I studied law at uni many moons ago, but went on to be a software developer. IP law generally and electronic distributrion of copyrighted stuff, or patents of software is something that interests me from 2 different perspectives.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, the Music and computer game industry tend to discredit their own arguments by making out that every copy was a lost sale. You can only 'lose' a sale if you would have made it other wise, it's a fallacy to say that X downloaded a song for free, we would have made money if he didn't get it for free. If he had to pay for it he may never have bought it, it wasn't worth it to him when it had a price.


My usual response is that it MUST be worth something to the thief, or the thief would not bother copying it. Perhaps not EVERY copy is a lost sale, but certainly some, and perhaps most, copies are lost sales. After all, some of those people who steal do want it enough to pay the asking price for it, and would if they could not get it free.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair to the music industry, if you go past the hype that appears in the media or during court cases and dig a bit deeper you will find statistics that don't base on every copy is a lost sale. One report linked to by the RIAA assumes that only 1 in 5 illegal downloads is a lost sale (http://www.ipi.org/), whilst other music bodies base on only 1 in 10. how those figures were arrived at is open to question, but they at least acknowledge the basic fact that only a minority of copying results in lost sales (within the music industry). I imagine they don't want to publicly admit such a thing as it may give the wrong impression, on the other hand they give the wrong impression by not being more open about it.

There are of course some huge differeces between 'wargames' and music. Music being a mass market industry, Assuming no legal issues I suspect most people like music enough to have some if it is going free, whereas wargaming is a niche market where I suspect most people have no particular interest even when it is free.

Basic economics really, music has always been, even before mass downloading, a price sensitive product. A reduction to free not surprisingly results in a huge boost in demand, it is probably only the illegal nature of the free that held it back. But that demand only exist cos its free, it doesn't exist at higher prices.
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eblack
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I missed the boat on the voting it seems, but I have printed and laminated my own ship cards from the Communique for my own use. Considering the costs of the ink and lamination, I wouldn't mind paying $0.50 per card (front and back).

So for a set of 72 cards, I wouldn't mind paying $36.00. This is a cost which I can afford and am willing to pay.

I like the idea of pre-printed cards because it is less work for me and they are very nice. However, I am not a fan of the boosters because I get cards which I don't care for along with the cards that I want.
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atomic
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't need (or want) all of the ship cards in Briefing #2. I'm mostly interested in the Fed, Klingon, and Romulan ships, so I wouldn't be willing to pay $100 just to get the ships that I want. I would be willing to pay $1-2 for the ships that I do want as PDFs. SVC has said several times that he probably won't sell individual ships as PDFs. What about selling "PDF boosters" (ie, all the Fed ships in a given product, or all the Hydrans, etc.?)

For me, if the only way to get the ships I want is to buy a $100 package, then I would do without.

Just my $0.02.
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m1a1dat
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can understand why ADB doesn't want to do the PDF ship cards. FOr my two cents to put in...

What would get me to buy more ship cards is to be able to order like a custom booster pack. Where i get to choose what ships i want in it, and not be forced to buy ships i don't want or more of ones that i already have enough of. Obviously there would have to be a minimum number of cards to order, but that would be fine.

Or another thing i would like to see is to just bring back the old SFB books of SSD's. With a couple dozen ships in a book and you can make copies of what you want and use. The color on the ship cards is nice but, to me, not nessecary at all. The black and white ships in the briefings, the colors that get turned to just different shading really looks all the same anyway, so just get rid of the colors and shading for an SSD book.
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asguard101
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agaree with ABD's view with PDFs and I think thier fear is correct that they would get leaked onto the web. At the same time I agree with M1s view of wanting specfic ships. If I wanted to obtain 6 or 7 CA of any race, I'd have to buy to sets of products, even if I didn't want the other ships with it. Maybe offing a system when you can add cards to a shopping cart and have a set minimum of says 12-15 cards must be ordered, would be very good useful. Is this doable or would the logistics for ABD having stock cards to do this be beyond a printable level?
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@M1A1Dat: Well, using Mike West's Z-rules from Captain's Log you can pretty easily convert nearly any SFB SSD into an FC ship card... so if you have any SFB R-modules you can do B&W ship cards for yourself...
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