Federation Commander

[DorianGray]

I know we have a tendency to completely shun other games on these forums in almost a "That guy is talking about a non-FC game in here? pfft, heretic... " but bear with me.

I have a feeling a lot of people here play FC and F&E and... that's it. I personally play a lot of wargames from GMT, or Clash of Arms games. Twilight Struggle and Paths of Glory are indisputable classics and people shunning them because they are not made by ADM is a shame, but recently I've played a similar space themed monster game Twilight Imperium (ranked 29th on BBG) and I was very very impressed. It had a savage combat resolution system and diplomacy along with a tech tree. !@!

I have not played F&E (ranked 2665th on BBG) but am hoping to at Origins, but from whats said on boardgamegeek F&E is really only for the hardest of hard core ADM loyalists. Its tendency to spawn hundreds of counters, take over 10 hours long, etc. I am hoping to join a group of some local players, but is it really that long?

I have no problems with monster games as long as they are elegant and worth it.

Anyone have experience playing these games and how do they compare? Since they both cost $60 - 80 plus dishing out $20 - $40 for the expansions, it is a significant decision.

[Rick Smith]

Are you always this antagonistic?

I mean, really:

[Mike]

[Scoutdad]

To take your points in order:

[DorianGray]

Hey, I stand corrected.

Assumptions always get me in trouble, but it was just that my own assumption - no need to get pissed about it. Sorry about ADM, AMD.. ADB. I need to remember that B. gah

I only assumed because in some earlier trends I felt I felt some hostility towards me when I mentioned other war games and other gaming companies.

Also I had no intent on being anagonistic, It is ranked 2660 something on BGG - though I feel that site is way too biased towards Euro-games.

Can someone give me a comparison? Is F&E a civilization building game or a pure war-game?

[Bolo_MK_XL]

If your really want to discuss or watch the discussions for other games then the Legacy board has several links so you can do that ---

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/22715/22715.html?1241267317

[Mike]

Sometimes it helps to look at the picture one has painted of himself to see what others see...

[Scoutdad]

[Rick Smith]

Dorian - I have to apologize for being reactionary. But sometimes you word things in a way that seems very confrontational or insulting. Maybe this isn't your intention, but thinking things through before you start typing goes a long way in communicating with others.

There's two great things about the ADB forums: we're all here for the same reason - we're stoked on a bunch of great games AND, because we're all here for the same reason, we all treat each other with a great deal of respect.

That's why I keep coming back.

Anyway, enough. My apologies to you and everyone else for coming down on you.
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UPFY

[Godeke]

I've been a lurker here, but I can say something about Federation and Empire, Twilight Imperium 3 (and 2 and 1) as I own them and their respective expansion(s).

My first question would be which version of Twilight Imperium you are thinking about?

The currently available Twilight Imperium 3 is what some might call a Wario, or a war game that borrows Eurogame ideas. It uses a Puerto Rico like action system, the amount of activity per turn is limited compared to traditional "move everything" war-games and at the end of the day it is a victory point system that marches to an inevitable end. (That end may be 6 hours away, but due to the accumulation of victory points the game can't stalemate). The empire building is streamlined to the point of abstraction, the political subsystem lacks some of the punch of the older Twilight Imperium games... but it is one of the best space empire games currently available, especially if you want a broader pool of players than the hard core war-gamer set.

The older Twilight Imperium games were much more conventional war/empire building games, with all the good and bad that goes with that. TI3 was really an attempt to bring the earlier system "up to modern standards", much as Federation Commander does with Star Fleet Battles. Many of the trade-offs are the same: detail gives way to abstraction. In most cases I would argue the abstraction is more successful.

And then you need to realize that the abstraction level of even the earlier Twilight Imperium games were much higher than Federation and Empire. While Twilight Imperium could still draw in the gamers who love space themes, Federation and Empire has a rule-set that makes it hard to present to all but the war-gamer, "simulationist" set. There are many edge cases, special rules, a myriad of building requirements and interlocking conditions that make it spectacular at what it sets out to do. What it sets out to do is to be a traditional war-game at the strategic-operational level, in a very cool settings. The scenario in a Twilight Imperium game is "a bunch of races are fighting for control of the empire, fill in your own details" while the scenarios in Federation and Empire are recreations of specific parts of the time-line.

The final analysis is simply that they are different beasts, each satisfying a different itch. The only true similarity is that they are space empire war games: even at the broad brush-stroke level the differences are night and day.

[Hod K'el]

Yeah, what he said!

Seriously, I too, have played both and prefer TI 1/2/3 to the F&E mainly because I do not have the time for F&E, which has always been a long drawn out campaign approach with horrendous details that you must keep track of. And, yes, that is my interpretation of the game from actual play. I like TI3 because you can play it out in about 3 to 4 hours and you have political, economic and military concerns, as well as backstabbing taking place simultaneous to your attempts to gain the Imperial throne. It actually reminds me of the Romulan situation.

Any ways, it depends on what you like and what you want to play. Right now, we have a FC campaign going in Battlegroup Acadiana and it will be most interesting to see what is going to happen, so no TI3 or F&E.
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HoD K'el
IMV Black Dagger
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Life is not victory;
Death is not defeat!

[Scoutdad]

[Requete]

I have not played F&E, but I have played TI. Twilight Imperium is an interesting game, but it has several factors which may or may not put you off:

1. It is not a "conflict simulation"; it doesn't really simulate anything.
2. It is an Empire Builder, not a Wargame.
3. Conflict seems rare and optional; it is easy to "turtle" and build an impenetrable empire.
4. It takes a long time (6 hours, maybe more) to play.

From what I can see, F&E is a strategic wargame and a consim of the General War. TI is not a strategic wargame and not a consim; it is a strategy game of empire building that has some limited potential for space combat.
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"In Klingon Empire, drone launches you!"

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Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy:
http://www.catholicity.com/prayer/divinemercy.html

[DorianGray]

6 hours or more.

Sure, but F&E will take ... let's see ... about 50+.

[Scoutdad]