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Strategies for all races
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Er...

What if the enemy doesn't want to close to range 1 with your less maneuverable (i.e. you move before they do) Gorn starship?


If your speed is up (base speed 24) with torps held, then if he doesn't want to let you get close, he'll have to turn and run. If he does, you can bolt your torpedoes at a rear shield and then turn away yourself to reload.
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junior
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At which point he runs you down and hammers you since your heavy weapons are reloading..

The problem is that bolts tend to be fairly expensive and time consuming for the payoff involved. 25 points of damage every three turns isn't going to scare anyone (less, actually, but I don't feel like double-checking the plasma damage charts at the moment). And while Gorn ships have a fairly good all-around phaser setup, opposing ships tend to have more phasers in a given direction (usually forward, though not always) than the Gorn ship does at any given time.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
At which point he runs you down and hammers you since your heavy weapons are reloading..

Not really. We have already established that the Gorn is going 24+ and the enemy has just turned off. Unless he HETs every time this is done, it takes time to turn around.

Also, we have established that the enemy is some distance away. At that point the bolting ship is running fast and is pointing the opposite direction from the enemy ship. If this isn't a map with a border, no one is chasing anyone down. (And if it does have a border, then the Gorn can just keep his plasma and corner the opposition.)

Quote:
The problem is that bolts tend to be fairly expensive and time consuming for the payoff involved.

This goes without saying. If you opponent will not come within effective seeking plasma range (or overload range for a photon), the game is gonna take time. So be it. If the opponent wants to keep range, then you might as well keep range. If everyone is going speed 24 all the time, I fail to see how anyone is going to be "running down" anyone else.

And, quite frankly, that is the main point. Plasma ships like to get in tight and get the battle over quickly. When fighting someone else who won't get close, then you have to change your game. Yes, it will take forever. But, if that is what your opponent wants, that is what your opponent is gonna get.
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Kahuna
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very few things are more frustrating in this game than an opponent that doesn't want to fight. I find the biggest deterrent to eating plasma torps to be high speed (unless they're running right at you and at close range Very Happy ), so what more can you do? Bolting and then veering off to reload is really all you've got.

Also, 25 points, although not hull-gutting is certainly nothing to sneeze at either. Combine that, with let's say 15 points of phaser fire, and you've got quite a nasty strike going on a rear shield. A plasma bolt in the rear of a retreating ship has got to beat one burning in the tubes.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we are still talking about the Gorns, let's take a BC. That gives it 2xPl-S and 2xPl-F. If you bolt the Pl-S, that will average 15 (max of 30) at range 10, and 11 (max of 22) at range 15. That guts a shield pretty effectively. Phasers help.

Then, while you are running, you still have your two Pl-F to toss "over your shoulder" to at least make him think about it. If you fired your Pl-S on impulse 8, then you can always have two-turn Pl-F again 9 impulses later.

Is this a fast game? No. But that is your opponent's choice by his refusal to get any closer than 10 or 15 hexes. The thing to remember is that you can play this game as well as he can. You just have to be patient and move very fast.
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junior
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
If we are still talking about the Gorns, let's take a BC. That gives it 2xPl-S and 2xPl-F. If you bolt the Pl-S, that will average 15 (max of 30) at range 10, and 11 (max of 22) at range 15. That guts a shield pretty effectively. Phasers help.


Remember, though, that if you bolt your S-Torps at range 8 (range 6-10, to be precise), on average only one of them is going to hit. Compare the 15 points of damage from that over a three turn arming cycle with the 32 average points of damage from a full load of photons at range 8 (overloaded, hit on a 1-3). If you assume that the Fed also adopts a three-turn arming cycle (there's nothing prohibiting it), then it's not likely that the Fed will have trouble overloading the photons while keeping his speed up.

Further, if the approach is set up correctly then the Fed doesn't even need to HET in order to evade. All he needs to do is set up an oblique approach, hammer you with his photons and phasers, and move away at speed 24. At 8 hexes away on an oblique, even if he doesn't accelerate your plasma S torpedoes won't catch him until they're nearly spent (Plasma F Torpedoes won't catch him period).

End result - you take down half of his facing shield and he takes down all of your facing shield.
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Rock Hudson
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing with plasma is to remember how the other side will view it. If you bubble 100 points, at a ship going at a relatively sane speed you'll pretty much guarantee a HET and your plasma will be down for a while. Dribbling plasma as they close is a far beter option in most circumstances, encourage them to take a slightly weakened plasma on the off shield on the way in, phasers and maybe a bolt at range 10, keep them softened up.

Plasma (unless you're looking at tractors or range 0 launches) are an oddly subtle weapon, if you encourage someone to start taking some of it, you can lull them into a position where they may as well take more than they intended or just turn off knowingthat they've been to degraded to win.


Last edited by Rock Hudson on Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
Remember, though, that if you bolt your S-Torps at range 8 (range 6-10, to be precise), on average only one of them is going to hit. Compare the 15 points of damage from that over a three turn arming cycle with the 32 average points of damage from a full load of photons at range 8 (overloaded, hit on a 1-3). If you assume that the Fed also adopts a three-turn arming cycle (there's nothing prohibiting it), then it's not likely that the Fed will have trouble overloading the photons while keeping his speed up.

I was mostly talking about disruptor ships who refuse to close. If you are facing a Fed going speed 24 and willingly get to 8 hexes, you get what you deserve. Do you ballet at range 15 (like a good Klingon would) and take your time. Or, get closer and play mind games.

But playing the ballet at range 8 is just stupid. Willingly charging head-first into an oblique attack (against anyone) is stupid. Doing stupid things gets you killed. Don't set yourself up on a tee. Don't let yourself end up eight hexes off his oblique hex spine. Mess with his oblique. Force him to choose whether to turn in. Stay outside 8 hexes. Remember, you are a Gorn. You don't really care if your opponent is sitting off your #4 shield, as (unlike a Fed) you can dump a lot of weapons down at him.

Or, if you really want to jack with him and you have the power, set up the range 10 shot and make sure you are evasive when the Fed gets to 8.

I am not saying it is always easy. It isn't. But anyone (plasma or not) who lets a Fed play range 8 hit-n-run deserves what they get. The Feds have two ranges (8 and 0-2). If you are playing against a Fed, don't go there.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Range 4 for Feds, especially in the Middle Years when Klingons have Ph-2s, can be another one of those ranges for the others to avoid. The Fed has a 2/3 chance of hitting with photons and the Ph-1s aren't too shabby at that range. The guy playing the ship taking such a volley has to decide to take a chance of not being hurt and chasing the Fed when he turns away or counter-firing (Me, too!) to avoid losing firepower from weapons that might be damaged in the attack.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting within Range 8 of a Fed ship is a bad thing, unless you're the Fed.
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junior
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright then...

D7, 10 hexes out, exchanging disruptor shots with your plasma bolts.

He does 24 over three turns. You do (assuming that you also bolt the Plasma-Fs) 21. Of course, if he does the smart thing and drops the range out to 11-15 hexes (remember who has by far the more manueverable ship here), then his disruptors aren't affected at all and your plasma bolt damage drops by over 2/3 to an average 6 2/3 (assuming that you bolt the F torpedoes as well). If you go evasive on the turns that you're not firing and assume that he can't close during those turns, then you reduce his disruptor damage to an average of 16 over three turns. He's still outperforming you by a very wide margin.

So basically, in the two hex wide Glory Zone you're possibly breaking even (depending on how your phasers work out; note that phaser-2s at that range only do less damage 1/3 of the time; and even then it's only one point less). If he opens the range even slightly, then you don't have a prayer of keeping up.
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Kahuna
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now we see why there are so many different races and so many different tactics for how people like to play them.

If the D7 is moving towards me, even obliquely, I probably wouldn't bolt but rather launch the torpedo. Again, all it takes is a one bad turn or slow speed to eat a healthy seeking plasma. If he's moving away, than those disruptors are pointing the wrong way anyway. He's firing back with what, a drone and a couple Ph2s?

Admittedly a D7 is able to move much more nimbly than the Gorn BC, but more nimbly than the seeking plasma? I think not.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't normally play plasma races, and I'm not overly familiar with gorn weapon arcs etc. But I'd be tempted against a klingon to just close in once the plasma is ready. On a single pass there is no contest with Range 5 bolts vs disrupters. Throw in some phaser 1s and you are looking at 50+ damage directed at power. Even with overloads the D7 is struggling to match that sort of damage and can't direct the damage, if he does match it then you take your chances that it falls largely on orange and yellow boxes. If the klink does take a power row hit then things don't look quite so rosy all of a sudden (doubly so if he takes it twice). If you can get the range 5 shot then the odds favor the Gorn coming out quite a bit better. Closing in like that also looks like you are going for a normal plasma launch which may make him manouover more with that in mind and not expect the bolt attack.

As noted the klink has an apparent edge at range 9-10, but that doesn't really say it all. The Gorn may doing ~20 vs 24 damage over 3 turns in the heavy weapon category, but he does his in 1 fell swoop whilst the 24 can be spread over multiple shields. On the turn the Gorn fires (with phasers as well and any points from previous turn phasers) there is a fair chance the klingon will lose a shield and take internals (directed of course), not the case the other way around.
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junior
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kahuna wrote:
And now we see why there are so many different races and so many different tactics for how people like to play them.

If the D7 is moving towards me, even obliquely, I probably wouldn't bolt but rather launch the torpedo. Again, all it takes is a one bad turn or slow speed to eat a healthy seeking plasma. If he's moving away, than those disruptors are pointing the wrong way anyway. He's firing back with what, a drone and a couple Ph2s?

Admittedly a D7 is able to move much more nimbly than the Gorn BC, but more nimbly than the seeking plasma? I think not.


Basing a strategy around "he might move slowly" means that the strategy won't work. NO ONE who has any experience playing against plamsa torpedoes moves slowly when fighting a plasma ship. And if a D7 or D5W is at ten hexes out, then he'll be able to turn away before the torpedo impacts, even if he starts facing directly toward you and the torpedo (which if he's smart, he won't be). At that point it's a simple matter to accelerate for a few impulses until the torpedo loses most of its strength and can be safely allowed to impact (and then either phasered down or completely ignored).

Quote:
But I'd be tempted against a klingon to just close in once the plasma is ready. On a single pass there is no contest with Range 5 bolts vs disrupters. Throw in some phaser 1s and you are looking at 50+ damage directed at power.


Smart Klingons don't let that happen. That's the whole point behind "saberdancing" - you use your superior maneuverability to keep the range open and whittle down the ship that your opponent is flying while staying well outside the range of your opponent's shorter-ranged weaponry.


Last edited by junior on Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
I don't normally play plasma races, and I'm not overly familiar with gorn weapon arcs etc. But I'd be tempted against a klingon to just close in once the plasma is ready. On a single pass there is no contest with Range 5 bolts vs disrupters. Throw in some phaser 1s and you are looking at 50+ damage directed at power. Even with overloads the D7 is struggling to match that sort of damage and can't direct the damage, if he does match it then you take your chances that it falls largely on orange and yellow boxes. If the klink does take a power row hit then things don't look quite so rosy all of a sudden (doubly so if he takes it twice). If you can get the range 5 shot then the odds favor the Gorn coming out quite a bit better. Closing in like that also looks like you are going for a normal plasma launch which may make him manouover more with that in mind and not expect the bolt attack.

As noted the klink has an apparent edge at range 9-10, but that doesn't really say it all. The Gorn may doing ~20 vs 24 damage over 3 turns in the heavy weapon category, but he does his in 1 fell swoop whilst the 24 can be spread over multiple shields. On the turn the Gorn fires (with phasers as well and any points from previous turn phasers) there is a fair chance the klingon will lose a shield and take internals (directed of course), not the case the other way around.


However, firing all the Plasma in Bolts means he'll be able to get up close and personal with you before you have plasma ready again.
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