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DAC and fighters
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madpax
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 49
Location: France

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:40 pm    Post subject: DAC and fighters Reply with quote

Hello, this is my first post here and I hope I place my post in the right section.

I just bought FC rules, after what... 15 to 20 years having stopped playing SFB (getting really bored after having tried Operation Cavalry...1 turn per afternoon, we were fed up with the scenario and SFB after two turns) and after looking at FC first missions rules and material in the web site decided to go back to SFB universes via FC.

It look like a very good ruleset, much more simple and friendly user.
I have, nontheless, two complaints, albeit smal ones.
The smallest one will be with fighters. Too bad they are almost removed, but I understand the need to get rid of them. Or almost, as you still have some stingers. But I don't like their treatments. Fighters just seem to be oversized shuttle, very fragile, low firepower (with short range) and very slow compared to ships.
At least, something could have been done to make them harder to hit as they should be small and nimble. Otherwise, they are easy prey to any phaser and the pilot life expectancy seem so small that I don't understand people would like to become fighter pilots in the first place.
I know the comparison is moot, but in Starfire, fighters can be a real pain in the @**, but here, they are just annoying buzzers.
Maybe the answer could be to give them the evasive maneuver defensive bonus without the drawbacks.
The other one is about the damage allocation chart. A good thing to resolve a string of up to 10 damage points in one roll, but I remember using a deck of cards in SFB instead of the regular DAC, and too bad I don't have it anymore. I wonder if I will make it again from scratch.
What I don't like is that you will have the same string of damage for the same die roll (albeit with slight variations due to alternate), but whatever you roll, frame hits will appear only when all warps are history. Why a ship can't be damaged in its frame before losing all warp?
Has anyone devised something to solve that?
I read here and there that you can score a frame when you skips X damage points, but that could advantages some factions like fed ships that have more redudancy over hits.

Marc
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Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1559
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marc,

My case was similar to yours. I was an old-time SFB player with limited time, so that game with all its complexity just wasn't for me. I found FC a couple of years ago and have been pleased with its ease of play and play speed. ADB has tried very hard to keep it that way.

As to fighters, the general consensus is to keep them out of FC for the most part. They will be available in Borders of Madness (see the thread about BoM for more details).

As to the Frame hits, the only time a Frame hit can be taken besides when the DAC calls for one is if a ship has only one box remaining of a particular system. Then the owner of the ship can choose to take a Frame instead of the last box of a system.

To speed up damage allocation, shortcuts had to be taken somewhere. In SFB every hit was rolled on the DAC. In FC every 10 hits are rolled. There is a little variety with six different damage charts, but the sequence remains the same.

Glad to have you back and on board with FC!
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Wolverin61
Commander


Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 497
Location: Mississippi

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can opt to take a hit on frame instead if the last box of any system is hit, e.g. last phaser, last tractor, etc.

You can repair warp boxes. You can't repair frame damage during a scenario. I think that's why they're last. In FC 'Frame' is basically the same thing as 'Excess Damage' in SFB.

btw welcome to the forum!
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4470
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, if "ALL" players agree, all skipped hits are applied as frame hits as well.
This will really speed up a game, which is why it is required that all players willingly accept this option.
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madpax
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 49
Location: France

PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your answers.
I didn't see that rule about frame, it seems I didn't read the rulebook as carefully as I thought. Laughing
About the fighters, yes, I saw somewhere (I read a lot of FC everywhere I can) that they would be rare. But they exist, and it seems they will be more numerous later. And I trust ADB to add a lot of them later.
That they are just treated as big shuttle annoy me. They should be more hard to kill and more maneuvrable.

Marc
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terryoc
Captain


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1380

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that Frame goes after all warp is gone is deliberate. FC is a "kinder, gentler" SFU, and so ships don't blow up quite so easily. The result is usually a ship with all its weapons shot off, but enough power to disengage.
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Mike
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Joined: 07 May 2007
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Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:

Quote:
Also, if "ALL" players agree, all skipped hits are applied as frame hits as well.


Is that a "house rule" you have used, or is it something I missed in reading the rulebook?
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Wolverin61
Commander


Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 497
Location: Mississippi

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
Scoutdad wrote:

Quote:
Also, if "ALL" players agree, all skipped hits are applied as frame hits as well.


Is that a "house rule" you have used, or is it something I missed in reading the rulebook?


(3E1a) is what I think he's referring to.
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1962
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
....FC is a "kinder, gentler" SFU, and so ships don't blow up quite so easily....

He's right. Still, there's nothing quite like a warp core breach to make my day. As long as it's the enemy's warp core being breached, that is... Twisted Evil
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolverin61 wrote:
Mike wrote:
Scoutdad wrote:

Quote:
Also, if "ALL" players agree, all skipped hits are applied as frame hits as well.


Is that a "house rule" you have used, or is it something I missed in reading the rulebook?


(3E1a) is what I think he's referring to.

That is the rule I was referring to, just didn't have the rulebook in MS with me to quote chapter/verse.
Although in retrospect, I have to admit my woirding was poorly chosen...

I shouldn't have said if "ALL" players agree... I should have said:
You can also (as per 3E1a) choose to apply any "skipped" hits directly to frame, but if used - this procedure should be used by all ships; not just by some of them.
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USS Enterprise
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 27 Feb 2009
Posts: 376
Location: Vulcan

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure this means that, say I get a Phasor hit, and have no PHasors, and the secondary option, lets say probe, is destroyed as well, I can save the hit for later or take it on the frame. I have no requirement to consult the other players.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reminder about that optional rule.
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1962
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

USS Enterprise wrote:
I'm pretty sure this means that, say I get a Phasor hit, and have no PHasors, and the secondary option, lets say probe, is destroyed as well, I can save the hit for later or take it on the frame. I have no requirement to consult the other players.

That's how I have always interpreted it - you don't have to ask anyone else's permission. It's not even an 'optional' rule, it's simply there; Fed Commander is self-declaredly short on Optional rules. However, I had also forgotten about it too so thanks for the heads-up; one day that may prove a lifesaver....
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3495
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
USS Enterprise wrote:
I'm pretty sure this means that, say I get a Phasor hit, and have no PHasors, and the secondary option, lets say probe, is destroyed as well, I can save the hit for later or take it on the frame. I have no requirement to consult the other players.

That's how I have always interpreted it - you don't have to ask anyone else's permission. It's not even an 'optional' rule, it's simply there; Fed Commander is self-declaredly short on Optional rules. However, I had also forgotten about it too so thanks for the heads-up; one day that may prove a lifesaver....

You are all missing 'dad's point.

As Kang points out, the rule is not 'optional'. Any time you have a skipped point, you get the option of either applying it as frame damage, or letting it be applied later. Anyone has the option on how to use this rule. But the effect was not his point.

The main point was that, if all players agree, you can all decide to take the option away and make it a requirement to apply any skipped damage points to frame damage. This will result in much quicker games with a lot more 'warp core breaches'. Removing the option from the rule is what requires the agreement of all of the players.
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2925
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think it's a good idea for speeding up games and I'm going to suggest it to my group, but it is indeed a "house rule".
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