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FOUR QUESTIONS FOR OUR CUSTOMERS
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toastie
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a set of turn gauges in my copy of Klingon Border, and they seemed to be identical to those that I got in the Commander's Edition of SFB. Are they no longer shipping with KB?
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They were in my copy of FC:KB as well.
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eblack
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Joined: 29 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
eblack wrote:
However, there is still this large group of people who won't touch the game because it tends to be a tactical game, not a shoot first - maybe move a hex or two - type of game.


OK, I am not grokking this. If you aren't moving more than a hex or two, why not just line the ship cards up and start rolling your weapons fire? And if you aren't even moving, why are miniatures even involved?

I am not trying to be insulting, or anything. I am being serious. If you don't actually move the miniatures (and "one or two hexes" isn't really moving), why are the involved? Are they just present for display purposes?

I guess I am just confused by the request. I could understand a request to simplify the turn procedure or simplify combat. But simplify movement to the point of eliminating it? I don't get it.


Perhaps you are missing the point. I wasn't suggesting a game with those rules. It was a bit of a joke on how WH40k is played coupled with the old adage, "shoot first, ask questions later".

What I was suggesting, is that perhaps a game could be developed to harness the people who play miniature games similar to WH40k, where tactical play does not play such an important role.

Simplier rules with greater customization I guess is the suggestion. It's not for everyone and I'm not suggesting that SFB nor FC should go this route, but rather a seperate game.

As for the rest, I'm sure you weren't trying to be insulting, rather that you did not understand my purpose. All I'm suggesting is that there is a large group of miniature players who ignore anything more complicated than building an army, blowing the crud out of each other and then doing it again. And these people have a lot of money. I watch as box after box of WH40k stuff is sold, while FC:KB sits on the shelf and collects dust at the local gaming store. If ADB is looking for suggestions on what *could* (note the emphasis on the word, could) be done, this is one of them. Take it with a grain of salt. I love SFB and FC, but right now it's hard to get players. I think everyone knows why.
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Archduke Russell John I
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Joined: 03 Nov 2006
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Location: Langhorne, Pa

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MJWest,

I agree what aresian is saying but to put it more in Federation Commander game terms an example might be a Federation CA moving speed 16 and a Klingon D7 moving speed 8. Instead of an system where movement and firing are spread over 8 impulses, everything is done in 2 phases. The Klingon would move his 8 hexes, the Federation would move his 16 hexes and then they fire at each other.

Of course, I think using this kind of system would require a shorter movement system. Instead of having speeds 8, 16 & 24, you might have speed 2, 4 & 6 (speeds divided by 4). So in the above example, the D7 would move 2 hexes and the CA would move 4 hexes and then they fire at each other.

At least this is what it appears to me what he is asking for.
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, thanks. I think I have the picture now.

Thanks for the explanations.
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aresian
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Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Hermitage, TN

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eblack wrote:

What I was suggesting, is that perhaps a game could be developed to harness the people who play miniature games similar to WH40k, where tactical play does not play such an important role.

Simplier rules with greater customization I guess is the suggestion. It's not for everyone and I'm not suggesting that SFB nor FC should go this route, but rather a seperate game.

As for the rest, I'm sure you weren't trying to be insulting, rather that you did not understand my purpose. All I'm suggesting is that there is a large group of miniature players who ignore anything more complicated than building an army, blowing the crud out of each other and then doing it again. And these people have a lot of money. I watch as box after box of WH40k stuff is sold, while FC:KB sits on the shelf and collects dust at the local gaming store. If ADB is looking for suggestions on what *could* (note the emphasis on the word, could) be done, this is one of them. Take it with a grain of salt. I love SFB and FC, but right now it's hard to get players. I think everyone knows why.



Sadly I do know why. Or at least in part. I've run games and had people come up and look and you can just read their thoughts. "Wow, cool miniatures. But look at those charts and ship cards. Man. I want to play a game, not learn differential calculus." And I've seen posts to other boards that basically say the same. We know FC isn't really hard. Easy to learn, hard to master as the old saw goes. But right now the gaming universe is geared toward simpler, faster games.

I was kidding when I mentioned an FC: Kindergarten earlier, but I have continued thinking about it. The way I'd see it is with movement like I mentioned earlier. Ships would have a rating for Shields and Internals and take damage to those, no facing. Phasers and disruptors would fire every turn. Photons every 2 turns. Plasmas every 3. There would be a limited pool of energy that could be used for overloads, High Energy Turns, repair Shields, boost Plasma dmg, etc. Just some random thoughts.
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Archduke Russell John I
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Joined: 03 Nov 2006
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Location: Langhorne, Pa

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking along the lines of Wooden Ships & Iron Men.

Speed is determined (usually 3, 4 or 5 based on wind direction),

The players write down how they are going to move (plotted movement written something like 1L1 meaning one hex forward, turn left, 1 hex forward)

Players fire their weapons. (determine range, roll dice compare two on damage chart) Damage chart has 3 columns - target hull, target rigging, targt crew (different types of ammo might limit target choices) take damage to one of three choices (crew, sail or weapons[hull])

Translating this into SFU: Duranium Alloy Ships & Alien Crews

Speed is determined (2, 4, or 6 depending on energy allocated)

Players move ships (can be plotted or you go me go)

Players fire weapons (can choice 1 of 3 damage columns - target power, target weapons, target crew)
Losses in power means reduced speeds
losses in weapons means reduced ability to deal damage
losses in crew means reduced ability in both because of lack of people to run ship

Shields could be a generic number that covers the whole ship instead of 6 specific numbers covering a specific hex side


Now I am not saying this is a good or bad idea. It just appears to be the level of difficulty the modern gaming market is looking for. At least based on the conversations I used to participate in over on the new Avalon Hill forum.
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just my opinion, but "No, Thanks!" The Federation Commander system is more than simple enough. Even my wife can (and does) play it. If it were to be simplified anymore, we may as well go all the way...

ADB can sell dice in Racial colors with a racial symbol where the 1-pip would be. Let everyone buy as many as they like. For each game, determine a BPV (Begining Pip Value) each BPV = 1 die in your racial colors. Both players roll their dice and add the pips. The highest total wins the round. The losing side musy deduct a number of dice equal to the difference in points and the winner deducts 1/2 that (this represnts crippled / daaged ships)...

Both players roll again and total the pips and continue until one side is eliminated or surrenders to the inevitable.

It doesn't get much easier than that... the dice are easy to produce and come fully painted. Eventually everyone will find dice they like (i.e., they roll high). All in all, I think it could be a real winner.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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Joined: 16 Jan 2007
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Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinda sounds like hes trying to reinvent STARFIRE again --
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aresian
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Joined: 27 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad I'm with you. I think FC is easy enough and with enough meat that it's right where I like a game in complexity. But that doesn't change the fact that it looks like the most popular minis games out right now are pretty much rules-lite. So while we may think FC is simple I think we're probably outnumbered by those who would prefer a system nearer in complexity to ACTA, Full Thrust or Starmada.
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eblack
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I started the topic, I feel somewhat responsible for this but this will be my last post on the subject. This has already derailed the thread enough.

I'm in agreement with Aresian in that, the most popular games out there are rules-lite. FC may be "easy" mode for us, but to others it is a difficult system. The anecdote that Scoutdad made of his wife being able to play is great. However, my fiance cannot play the game. It's too complex for her. She's a gamer though, so what does that really mean? It means that FC, in comparison to other games, is more complex. That complexity is my reasoning that FC struggles to get players (in my local area, maybe not everyone else's).

Anyway, the suggestion boils down to this: If FC is SFB-lite, why cannot there be a game which introduces the SVU world to new people with less rules and more mayhem, an FC-lite if you will.
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been stated up-thread, there is one - Star Fleet Battle Force.

That game isn't a map-and-minis game, but it is the one that ADB puts into that niche.

I can't see ADB abandoning the "easy" product they already have to go invest in a different one.

I can see where you are coming from with a desire for a new map-and-minis game at a simpler play-skill-level, but I just don't see it coming from ADB. At least not for a while. Maybe someday, but there are a lot of other things I see on the list of ideas they are considering (posted on the legacy board).

ADB are really small (but successful) and they don't have the resources to just junk a whole product line the way WoC and the big boys can.

If you really need something trimmed down from fedCom to satisfy your local group's needs, you might be better off home-brewing something or doing a conversion.
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TJolley
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another option for you might be to take a look at Full Thrust - which you can download for free here : http://www.gtns.co.uk/store1/commerce.cgi?page=downloads.html.

The movement rules are junk, but you can come up with some pretty simple alternatives for yourself, rate up the FC ships, and play away.

I've rated up all the Fasa Trek Ships, and you can run through a large fleet engagement pretty quick.

Full thrust (with More Thrust and both fleet books - all free and down-loadable) is a bit less complex than Fed Com, but is still loads of fun to play

I have a spreadsheet which is based on one done by Star Ranger that adds in a bunch or weapon types that allow for the rating up more effectively of Trek type ships. Makes converting ships to Full Thrust is pretty easy now.
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eblack
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I lied... one more post:

SFBF is nice and all, but we (or I am) are talking about getting miniatures players in, not card gamers.

I'd like to point you all to this:

"4) What new concept or idea should ADB investigate to improve its operations"

New concepts is what they asked for, and that's what I gave. If you don't like it, I understand... but don't shoot it down because, "It's not within ADB's ability" because until they investigate, we don't know if they can. And don't shoot it down because you think I want this for my friends. I can always put my creative efforts forward for me and my friends. As I posted above, it was an idea to get players from the miniature crowd in on this. I mentioned my friends because it is a reference point from where I am coming from. If I dropped the bomb (which this is obviously one... and I begged forgivness in the beginning for it) and didn't point out where I was coming from, there would be a slew of misunderstanding of why I'd suggest that a game with simplier rules would appeal to the masses.

I can't speak for your gaming areas, but I can mine. If it's not WH40k or one of the varients of simple rules play, collect miniatures, blow each up, rinse, repeat... they aren't playing it around here. At least not in large droves. Certainly there are small communities of players, but that's about it.

A suggestion of finding a game to appeal to the masses, is all that the suggestion is really about.

Ok that's it, seriously. I opened the can of worms. Sorry. Back to shooting down Kilngons off the port bow.
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Archduke Russell John I
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree here. I am not necessarily saying I find Federation Commander to hard. Heck, I play F&E, Empire in Arms and Diplomacy. Nor am I saying ADB shouldstop supporting Federation Commander.

However, if you look at the games that are being published and making the biggest impact are the simple games and Federation Commander would not fall in that category. I actually think of Federation Commander as the equivalent of the old wargames that Avalon Hill used to publish.

Additionally, ADB is going to eventually add another system or Federation Commander is going to go the way of SFB and become a bloated over expanded game that is virtually unplayable. An idea similar to the above might get ADB an even large slice of the market.
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