Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Weird Damage Allocation Question
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:00 am    Post subject: Weird Damage Allocation Question Reply with quote

This came up in a recent game.

A Federation FF is near death. Its remaining boxes include a Probe, Emer, and a frame. There are 5 remaining skip hits that need to be applied.

The funny thing is that this results in an infinite loop on the DAC. None of the first 5 hits on any of the 6 damage tracks will ever result in a frame, emer or probe hit. The target could continually refuse to allocate the damage to frame. Each time through would result in 5 skip damage points forever.

We finally decided to use common sense and assume the FF was blown up since there was more damage than total ship boxes left. However, what would've happened if there was a Probe, Emer, and 1 Frame left and there were only 2 skip damage points? Would the target ship be forced to take both of them on Frame?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hod K'el
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Lafayette LA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:16 am    Post subject: Skips Reply with quote

I don't know exactly how you were playing it, but we take the option to not skip a hit, but instead, we take a frame hit.

Example: Phaser
No phaser!
Battery.
No battery!
Frame.
Got it!

Also, I noticed you mention the first five items. You go down (all the way down) the list to see if there is a hit before you go to any other line, then you count how many are still left. You will get the probe!
_________________
HoD K'el
IMV Black Dagger
-----------------
Life is not victory;
Death is not defeat!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Requete
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Leander, TX

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: Weird Damage Allocation Question Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
This came up in a recent game.

A Federation FF is near death. Its remaining boxes include a Probe, Emer, and a frame. There are 5 remaining skip hits that need to be applied.

The funny thing is that this results in an infinite loop on the DAC. None of the first 5 hits on any of the 6 damage tracks will ever result in a frame, emer or probe hit. The target could continually refuse to allocate the damage to frame. Each time through would result in 5 skip damage points forever.

We finally decided to use common sense and assume the FF was blown up since there was more damage than total ship boxes left. However, what would've happened if there was a Probe, Emer, and 1 Frame left and there were only 2 skip damage points? Would the target ship be forced to take both of them on Frame?


A gutted Fed FF? That's heartbreaking... the poor thing. Shame on the captain of that fine vessel! Crying or Very sad

Anyway... if you have to skip you keep going down the chart. Eventually you'll get to item 10: Any Warp / Frame. Then there will be an explosion.
_________________
"In Klingon Empire, drone launches you!"

----

Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy:
http://www.catholicity.com/prayer/divinemercy.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would make sense to continue donw the DAC, but that's not supported in the rules.

3D3b clearly says that if the damage isn't allocated to primary or secondary, it gets skipped or taken as frame at option of owning ship's player.

3D3c clearly says that you continue this process until 10 points or all damage points have been allocated. If there are skip points remaining, they get allocated again.

In this case, 5 points have been allocated. Each individual point hits neither a primary nor secondary and the owning player doesn't want to apply to frame. After 5 pts are applied, all 5 result in skps since the owning player doesn't want any of them applied to frame. Thus the process must repeat for infinity if you go strictly by the rules, at least according to my revision 4 rulebook.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OGOPTIMUS
Captain


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 981

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked this a while back. You do keep going on the line to apply the damage, it's not lost (unless you're using directed targeting).

Here's the thread that where I asked, and Mike West's answer (among others).

http://starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=596
_________________
O.G. OPTIMUS


NEW Page | OLD Page
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
eblack
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering about this myself recently. While Mike West's answer on the former thread is how I view the ruling should be, mojo jojo is correct that it is not in the rules. It would be nice to have this added to the next set of rules.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pinecone
Fleet Captain


Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the First however many on a DAC line don;t have what you need, you keep going down. Unless you ninfinently roll the same DAC number, the ship will eventually blow.
_________________
Doomed to live in secret since discovering that the Air Force Tapes were a fantasy... Embarassed

"Your knowledge of my existence must be punished" Twisted Evil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3471
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You keep going down the DAC line. The option to take the hit on frame damage is to prevent the skipped damage from going down the line. That means, at worst case, you will always take a frame hit at the end of the row when your warp is all gone.

Also, the rules do cover this. Rule (3D3b) specifically says that "'skipped' damage points are added to the end of the procedure (filling out the last group of ten ...)." It reinforces this with the last sentence which says that skipped damage points do not necessarily start a new roll.

So, you continue down the DAC row until you hit something or you fall off the end. And you will always hit a warp box, or a frame box if warp is all gone.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
eblack
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With respect, I don't believe that it clearly spells it out that way Mike.

While I don't have the rulebook in front of me just this second, this is how I interpret the ruling:

On a given roll on the DAC, there are 10 points to be scored. During the counting out of the damage the fourth point is skipped because the first and alternate items are unavailable. So I see it as follows:

Damage point 1 scores
Damage point 2 scores
Damage point 3 scores
Damage point 4 skipped
Damage point 5 scores

Not

Damage point 1 scores
Damage point 2 scores
Damage point 3 scores
Damage point 4 skipped
Damage point 4 scores on next line

If the second way is the "correct" way of doing things, then in reality, the 10th point is the point which would get wrapped around to be grouped witha ny remaining damage. But I don't believe that this is the case because the rule says something along the lines of (to paraphrase) "If the alternate system is also not available then the point is skipped". Since it states the point is skipped and not the DAC line, I interpret this to mean that point 4 is skipped, not point 10.

I believe that the "do not necessarily start a new roll" reinforces the concept of filling out the last group of ten, not the skipping of a DAC line.

Also, I feel that "skipped damage points are added to the end of the procedure" simply means that any skipped points do not continue on the DAC and are moved back to the pool of damage points to fill out a group of ten as the end of the procedure is to take the remaining points and roll on the DAC again.

I believe that the way you have described is the correct way Mike, however I do not feel that the rules adequately describe that at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3471
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but I can't help with how people read the rules, I can only explain how they are intended. Requests for rewording are then relayed to Steve, but, I have to say that this is not a common problem.

As for your example, the way I would explain it, would be (assuming five damage points):
Damage point 1 scores
Damage point 2 scores
Damage point 3 scores
Damage point 4 skipped (moved to end)
Damage point 5 scores
Damage point 6 (the old #4) skipped
Damage point 7 (the old #4 and #6) scores

While this is functionally identical to your second example, I think this best illustrates how the procedure is described.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
eblack
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that request could be forwarded, that would be great. Again, I understand the intended rule, but as you said, you cannot help how people may read a rule.

I think if an example was included with damage of less than 10 were scored and 1 or more points were skipped and added to the end, it would clarify the rule very well for people such as me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems clear to me. The entire concept of a "skipped" damage is that if neither primary nor secondary systems have a functioning box, you move on to the right in the DAC. There is no way to prevent getting to #10 and taking damage somehow.
_________________
Mike

=====
"Sometimes our best is not enough. We must do what is required." -- Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
eblack
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
It seems clear to me. The entire concept of a "skipped" damage is that if neither primary nor secondary systems have a functioning box, you move on to the right in the DAC. There is no way to prevent getting to #10 and taking damage somehow.


I'm sure it is clear to some, but it is obviously not clear to everyone. If I may quote from the rulebook (now that I am home)...

3D3d Skipped Points: Any "skipped" damage points are added to the end of the procedure (filling out the last group of ten and perhaps starting new one). The skipped points do not (necessarily) start a new die roll. See also (3D4b).

To me (and I'm sure to others), the skipped damage intent is to roll over to the last batch of up to ten points, not move itself along the DAC.

Let's try this:

3 points of damage on Table #1:

Point 1, damage to R Warp
Point 2, no impulse, no reactor, skip
Point 3, damage to L Warp

Now here is the rub.... do you:

1) score a point of damage on F Hull

or

2) roll for 1 point of damage.

If I proceed on #1, I conform to rule 3D3b and 3D3c but I break rule 3D3d which states that "the skipped damage point is added to the end of the procedure (filling out the last group of ten and perhaps starting a new one)".

If I proceed on #2, I conform to rule 3D3b, 3D3c and 3D3d.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1947
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You score it on F Hull. A skipped hit just means that the damage penetrates further to the right on the damage chart. For this reason, it is sometimes possible to 'finesse' damage by reinforcement, so that the damage does not 'reach' a critical system. But that's another story....

In fact it's described in this thread: http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1920

But I too have been confused by the wording and have had it clarified here in the past by Mike and other players.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
eblack
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand how it is supposed to be interpreted... I guess what I'm trying to defend is a reason to have an additional clarification added to the rulebook.

You say it moves to the right, but rule 3D3b doesn't say that. It says that if the alternate item is not available, skip that item or take a hit on the frame at the owning player's option.

3D3c governs skipped points which says to add them to the last group of 10 or start a new group of ten.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group