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mojo jojo Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009 Posts: 340
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: Weird Damage Allocation Question |
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This came up in a recent game.
A Federation FF is near death. Its remaining boxes include a Probe, Emer, and a frame. There are 5 remaining skip hits that need to be applied.
The funny thing is that this results in an infinite loop on the DAC. None of the first 5 hits on any of the 6 damage tracks will ever result in a frame, emer or probe hit. The target could continually refuse to allocate the damage to frame. Each time through would result in 5 skip damage points forever.
We finally decided to use common sense and assume the FF was blown up since there was more damage than total ship boxes left. However, what would've happened if there was a Probe, Emer, and 1 Frame left and there were only 2 skip damage points? Would the target ship be forced to take both of them on Frame? |
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Hod K'el Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Aug 2008 Posts: 301 Location: Lafayette LA
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: Skips |
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I don't know exactly how you were playing it, but we take the option to not skip a hit, but instead, we take a frame hit.
Example: Phaser
No phaser!
Battery.
No battery!
Frame.
Got it!
Also, I noticed you mention the first five items. You go down (all the way down) the list to see if there is a hit before you go to any other line, then you count how many are still left. You will get the probe! _________________ HoD K'el
IMV Black Dagger
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Life is not victory;
Death is not defeat! |
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Requete Lieutenant JG
Joined: 15 Jul 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Leander, TX
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Weird Damage Allocation Question |
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mojo jojo wrote: | This came up in a recent game.
A Federation FF is near death. Its remaining boxes include a Probe, Emer, and a frame. There are 5 remaining skip hits that need to be applied.
The funny thing is that this results in an infinite loop on the DAC. None of the first 5 hits on any of the 6 damage tracks will ever result in a frame, emer or probe hit. The target could continually refuse to allocate the damage to frame. Each time through would result in 5 skip damage points forever.
We finally decided to use common sense and assume the FF was blown up since there was more damage than total ship boxes left. However, what would've happened if there was a Probe, Emer, and 1 Frame left and there were only 2 skip damage points? Would the target ship be forced to take both of them on Frame? |
A gutted Fed FF? That's heartbreaking... the poor thing. Shame on the captain of that fine vessel!
Anyway... if you have to skip you keep going down the chart. Eventually you'll get to item 10: Any Warp / Frame. Then there will be an explosion. _________________ "In Klingon Empire, drone launches you!"
----
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy:
http://www.catholicity.com/prayer/divinemercy.html |
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mojo jojo Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009 Posts: 340
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: |
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It would make sense to continue donw the DAC, but that's not supported in the rules.
3D3b clearly says that if the damage isn't allocated to primary or secondary, it gets skipped or taken as frame at option of owning ship's player.
3D3c clearly says that you continue this process until 10 points or all damage points have been allocated. If there are skip points remaining, they get allocated again.
In this case, 5 points have been allocated. Each individual point hits neither a primary nor secondary and the owning player doesn't want to apply to frame. After 5 pts are applied, all 5 result in skps since the owning player doesn't want any of them applied to frame. Thus the process must repeat for infinity if you go strictly by the rules, at least according to my revision 4 rulebook. |
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OGOPTIMUS Captain
Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 980
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eblack Lieutenant JG
Joined: 29 May 2007 Posts: 50
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:39 am Post subject: |
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I was wondering about this myself recently. While Mike West's answer on the former thread is how I view the ruling should be, mojo jojo is correct that it is not in the rules. It would be nice to have this added to the next set of rules. |
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pinecone Fleet Captain
Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 1862 Location: Earth
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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If the First however many on a DAC line don;t have what you need, you keep going down. Unless you ninfinently roll the same DAC number, the ship will eventually blow. |
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mjwest Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006 Posts: 4075 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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You keep going down the DAC line. The option to take the hit on frame damage is to prevent the skipped damage from going down the line. That means, at worst case, you will always take a frame hit at the end of the row when your warp is all gone.
Also, the rules do cover this. Rule (3D3b) specifically says that "'skipped' damage points are added to the end of the procedure (filling out the last group of ten ...)." It reinforces this with the last sentence which says that skipped damage points do not necessarily start a new roll.
So, you continue down the DAC row until you hit something or you fall off the end. And you will always hit a warp box, or a frame box if warp is all gone. _________________
Federation Commander Answer Guy |
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eblack Lieutenant JG
Joined: 29 May 2007 Posts: 50
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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With respect, I don't believe that it clearly spells it out that way Mike.
While I don't have the rulebook in front of me just this second, this is how I interpret the ruling:
On a given roll on the DAC, there are 10 points to be scored. During the counting out of the damage the fourth point is skipped because the first and alternate items are unavailable. So I see it as follows:
Damage point 1 scores
Damage point 2 scores
Damage point 3 scores
Damage point 4 skipped
Damage point 5 scores
Not
Damage point 1 scores
Damage point 2 scores
Damage point 3 scores
Damage point 4 skipped
Damage point 4 scores on next line
If the second way is the "correct" way of doing things, then in reality, the 10th point is the point which would get wrapped around to be grouped witha ny remaining damage. But I don't believe that this is the case because the rule says something along the lines of (to paraphrase) "If the alternate system is also not available then the point is skipped". Since it states the point is skipped and not the DAC line, I interpret this to mean that point 4 is skipped, not point 10.
I believe that the "do not necessarily start a new roll" reinforces the concept of filling out the last group of ten, not the skipping of a DAC line.
Also, I feel that "skipped damage points are added to the end of the procedure" simply means that any skipped points do not continue on the DAC and are moved back to the pool of damage points to fill out a group of ten as the end of the procedure is to take the remaining points and roll on the DAC again.
I believe that the way you have described is the correct way Mike, however I do not feel that the rules adequately describe that at all. |
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mjwest Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006 Posts: 4075 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but I can't help with how people read the rules, I can only explain how they are intended. Requests for rewording are then relayed to Steve, but, I have to say that this is not a common problem.
As for your example, the way I would explain it, would be (assuming five damage points):
Damage point 1 scores
Damage point 2 scores
Damage point 3 scores
Damage point 4 skipped (moved to end)
Damage point 5 scores
Damage point 6 (the old #4) skipped
Damage point 7 (the old #4 and #6) scores
While this is functionally identical to your second example, I think this best illustrates how the procedure is described. _________________
Federation Commander Answer Guy |
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eblack Lieutenant JG
Joined: 29 May 2007 Posts: 50
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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If that request could be forwarded, that would be great. Again, I understand the intended rule, but as you said, you cannot help how people may read a rule.
I think if an example was included with damage of less than 10 were scored and 1 or more points were skipped and added to the end, it would clarify the rule very well for people such as me. |
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Mike Fleet Captain
Joined: 07 May 2007 Posts: 1675 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:31 am Post subject: |
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It seems clear to me. The entire concept of a "skipped" damage is that if neither primary nor secondary systems have a functioning box, you move on to the right in the DAC. There is no way to prevent getting to #10 and taking damage somehow. _________________ Mike
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Sandpaper gets the job done, but makes for a lot of friction. |
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eblack Lieutenant JG
Joined: 29 May 2007 Posts: 50
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Mike wrote: | It seems clear to me. The entire concept of a "skipped" damage is that if neither primary nor secondary systems have a functioning box, you move on to the right in the DAC. There is no way to prevent getting to #10 and taking damage somehow. |
I'm sure it is clear to some, but it is obviously not clear to everyone. If I may quote from the rulebook (now that I am home)...
3D3d Skipped Points: Any "skipped" damage points are added to the end of the procedure (filling out the last group of ten and perhaps starting new one). The skipped points do not (necessarily) start a new die roll. See also (3D4b).
To me (and I'm sure to others), the skipped damage intent is to roll over to the last batch of up to ten points, not move itself along the DAC.
Let's try this:
3 points of damage on Table #1:
Point 1, damage to R Warp
Point 2, no impulse, no reactor, skip
Point 3, damage to L Warp
Now here is the rub.... do you:
1) score a point of damage on F Hull
or
2) roll for 1 point of damage.
If I proceed on #1, I conform to rule 3D3b and 3D3c but I break rule 3D3d which states that "the skipped damage point is added to the end of the procedure (filling out the last group of ten and perhaps starting a new one)".
If I proceed on #2, I conform to rule 3D3b, 3D3c and 3D3d. |
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Kang Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007 Posts: 1976 Location: Devon, UK
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:00 am Post subject: |
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You score it on F Hull. A skipped hit just means that the damage penetrates further to the right on the damage chart. For this reason, it is sometimes possible to 'finesse' damage by reinforcement, so that the damage does not 'reach' a critical system. But that's another story....
In fact it's described in this thread: http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1920
But I too have been confused by the wording and have had it clarified here in the past by Mike and other players. _________________
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eblack Lieutenant JG
Joined: 29 May 2007 Posts: 50
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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I understand how it is supposed to be interpreted... I guess what I'm trying to defend is a reason to have an additional clarification added to the rulebook.
You say it moves to the right, but rule 3D3b doesn't say that. It says that if the alternate item is not available, skip that item or take a hit on the frame at the owning player's option.
3D3c governs skipped points which says to add them to the last group of 10 or start a new group of ten. |
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