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One big vs. two not-so-big
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1875

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
Ok, let's compare a full 4 hex alpha strike with each ship. Both ships are moving 24, so that's 36 power used for each set of ships.

...


Why would the DN go speed 24? It has no need to close as it can outshoot the CMs at longer ranges, and doesn't gain much by going faster with a higher turn mode. I see little reason to go faster than 16 base (maybe an accel at a key moment) leaving him with another 12ish power. Situation depending I might even be tempted by speed 8 and accels as needed, batteries for 2 * 7 points and more overloads may be more useful than the extra speed. What has happened prior to reaching range 4? Most games I've played don't involve a first exchange at range 4. If the DN is keeping batteries back then he can reduce the internals to about zero at range 4 against CMs doing speed 24. a CM who has taken damage in the initial longer range exchange will be taking more internals.

I'd be surprised if you can readily keep shooting the same shield. In your scenario you are facing each other centerlined each at speed 24 range 4, the next impulse will see you behind the DN (as you more or less pass each other) and no where near the downed shield. Then there is a HET to deal with, but even so, shield arcs can change rapidly at close range. If the 1 good CM is anywhere near the DN at the start of the follwing turn you will get a HET on subpulse 4 of impulse 1 to bring whatever can be brought to bear without exposing a downed shield, on a DN still largely intact that is likely to be quite a lot due to fairly good arc coverage. If at range 0 or 1 then the DN might even tractor a CM with the huge power advantage to keep his position where he wants it. If the range extends then it is easier to avoid exposing down shield. With 1 CM largely out the fight the remaining one has to handle all the drones on his own which is going to eat into his power/manouvering ability.
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Why would the DN go speed 24? It has no need to close as it can outshoot the CMs at longer ranges, and doesn't gain much by going faster with a higher turn mode. I see little reason to go faster than 16 base (maybe an accel at a key moment) leaving him with another 12ish power. Situation depending I might even be tempted by speed 8 and accels as needed, batteries for 2 * 7 points and more overloads may be more useful than the extra speed. What has happened prior to reaching range 4? Most games I've played don't involve a first exchange at range 4. If the DN is keeping batteries back then he can reduce the internals to about zero at range 4 against CMs doing speed 24. a CM who has taken damage in the initial longer range exchange will be taking more internals.


The exact speed doesn't matter, just that both sides are picking the same speed and thus spend the same energy on speed. And my analysis holds for any range from 4 to 8 alpha strike.Only neither side does any appreciable internals at 8 range and both get a shield worn away. The CMs still do more total expected damage since they have the extra phaser 1 and slightly better power to overload an additional disrupter. Also, their advantages should increase after the first strike since they have 60 sustained power vs 55 for the DN once the batteries are used up.

I’m not quite sure why you automatically assume the DN can outshoot the CMs at longer ranges. 6 Disrupters and 8 Phaser 1s plus more total power sounds like a better deal than 6 Disrupters 7 Phaser 1s and less total power. Unless he stays at speed 8 for the whole battle and the CMs stay at range 15 all the time.


storeylf wrote:

I'd be surprised if you can readily keep shooting the same shield. In your scenario you are facing each other centerlined each at speed 24 range 4, the next impulse will see you behind the DN (as you more or less pass each other) and no where near the downed shield. Then there is a HET to deal with, but even so, shield arcs can change rapidly at close range. If the 1 good CM is anywhere near the DN at the start of the follwing turn you will get a HET on subpulse 4 of impulse 1 to bring whatever can be brought to bear without exposing a downed shield, on a DN still largely intact that is likely to be quite a lot due to fairly good arc coverage. If at range 0 or 1 then the DN might even tractor a CM with the huge power advantage to keep his position where he wants it. If the range extends then it is easier to avoid exposing down shield. With 1 CM largely out the fight the remaining one has to handle all the drones on his own which is going to eat into his power/manouvering ability.


Sure if your opponent charges a speed 8 DN head on at speed 24, he’ll be at a disadvantage. However, I’m assuming smart play from both sides where the CMs use their maneuver advantages to control the range and facing of the attack. Face it, a speed 8 DN has absolutely no control over where and when the engagement takes place. He can only react to what the CMs allow him to do.

Also, speed 8 at close range is dangerous. You're just begging the other guy to get behind you and blast you where you have no weapons able to fire.

If anything, the CMs have a much better ability to present a fresh shield than the DN due to maneuverability. This allows the CMs to wear down the DNs shields faster than the DN wearing down the CMs shields. If one CMs shields are worn away, the other one can close the range to inflict more damage. If the DN keeps picking at the wounded CM at range 8, he does less damage. If he hits the fresh CM at range 4, that’s 30 additional shields that enter play.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The exact speed doesn't matter,


It matters a lot.

Quote:
just that both sides are picking the same speed and thus spend the same energy on speed.


!? Why would the DN want to do the same speed as the CMs, he should do whatever is best for him. If the CMs want to match the DN then fair enough that is for them to decide. If the CMs do speed 24 and reduce power available for overloading then that works well for the DN as he will be firing all overloads and therefore doing more damage. If they go slower then the range stays open longer and the extra manouverability you correctly mention becomes less obvious.

Quote:
Only neither side does any appreciable internals at 8 range and both get a shield worn away.


At speed 8 the DN can fully overload and fully battery incoming damage from 2 volleys, With full overloads and ph1s the DN averages 40 damage at range 8, that is definately a down shield and internals on a CM, whereas the CMs average 25 after batteries, leaving over half a shield left after rotation. that is not an even exchange.

Quote:
I’m not quite sure why you automatically assume the DN can outshoot the CMs at longer ranges. 6 Disrupters and 8 Phaser 1s plus more total power sounds like a better deal than 6 Disrupters 7 Phaser 1s and less total power.


That's just basic maths, at range 15 the DN averages about 20 damage, even with batteries the CMs are taking about 18 per hit. The CMs on the other hand average 6 after batteries (and only 1 after rotation). The CMs are taking 3 times the damage at that range, so yes the DN can readily outshoot CMs at that range.

Quote:
Unless he stays at speed 8 for the whole battle and the CMs stay at range 15 all the time.


The DN can go speed 16 whilst doing that (8+ more likely). What the CMs do is up to them.

Quote:
However, I’m assuming smart play from both sides where the CMs use their maneuver advantages to control the range and facing of the attack. Face it, a speed 8 DN has absolutely no control over where and when the engagement takes place. He can only react to what the CMs allow him to do.


The DN won't control the engagement in that respect. Given his disadvantage in the turning department he shouldn't try to (thats playing to the opponents strength, and failing). However, he doesn't need to try, he already controls the battle to an extent through the simple dominance he has at any range the CMs choose (play to your relative strength, extra power for weapons/batteries plays on your existing staying power and big single volley advantage). The CMs can't beat the DN at long range, they are at a huge disadvantage at range 8ish, at point blank range the DN will more or less blow away a CM and survive well enough to be capable of blowing the other one away afterwards. If the DN goes speed 8 with an accelerate at key points then the CMs can't really out turn him at shorter ranges either. At speed 16 the CM is the same turn arc as the speed 8 DN, and that doesn't account for the HET. The DN will always be able to HET and hit hard before you can fire at him again if the CMs charge in, so you will probably never get the chance to hit that down shield a secomd time if you follow that strategy. Given how unlikely it is that there will still be 2 battleworthy CMs after a close range exchange, he only needs a single HET to bring weapons to bear on the 2nd CM if it stays close, cos it won't be combat effective afterwards.
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Kahuna
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Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 139
Location: Spokane, WA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Storyelfs logic on this one. Again, for the reasons I mentioned previously. What's cool about FC is that it isn't like comic book heroes. You know those discussions you (well I) got into asking who would win between Superman and the Hulk or Batman and Wolverine. In FC you can actually take it to the board and prove your points. So, when are you two facing off? I'd love to hear the results of the duel. Very Happy
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:

It matters a lot.


No it doesn't. The CMs have more power left over after paying for speed.


storeylf wrote:

!? Why would the DN want to do the same speed as the CMs, he should do whatever is best for him. If the CMs want to match the DN then fair enough that is for them to decide. If the CMs do speed 24 and reduce power available for overloading then that works well for the DN as he will be firing all overloads and therefore doing more damage. If they go slower then the range stays open longer and the extra manouverability you correctly mention becomes less obvious.

At speed 8 the DN can fully overload and fully battery incoming damage from 2 volleys, With full overloads and ph1s the DN averages 40 damage at range 8, that is definately a down shield and internals on a CM, whereas the CMs average 25 after batteries, leaving over half a shield left after rotation. that is not an even exchange.


If the DN stays at speed 8, then the CM that faces the DN never go into 8 range. One of them stays at the front of the DN at greater than 8 and the other goes around the DN and only closes to within 8 from the rear of the DN. There's a huge difference in expected damage output from range 8 and range 15 and the slow DN has no capability of stopping one of the CMs from reaching optimal fire range while the other one threatens the other side. Except for the HET which is expensive in energy and can be safely done only once.

storeylf wrote:

That's just basic maths, at range 15 the DN averages about 20 damage, even with batteries the CMs are taking about 18 per hit. The CMs on the other hand average 6 after batteries (and only 1 after rotation). The CMs are taking 3 times the damage at that range, so yes the DN can readily outshoot CMs at that range.


The basic math is that the CMs won't stay at range 15 at the same shield. It's likely the DN will be shooting at 16+ at one of them while the other one darts in at closer than 15 where the DN's weapons won't reach.

storeylf wrote:

The DN can go speed 16 whilst doing that (8+ more likely). What the CMs do is up to them.


Not doing all the things you want it to do, firing all overloads and all phasers and and using 14 power to reduce incoming damage.


storeylf wrote:

The DN won't control the engagement in that respect. Given his disadvantage in the turning department he shouldn't try to (thats playing to the opponents strength, and failing). However, he doesn't need to try, he already controls the battle to an extent through the simple dominance he has at any range the CMs choose (play to your relative strength, extra power for weapons/batteries plays on your existing staying power and big single volley advantage). The CMs can't beat the DN at long range, they are at a huge disadvantage at range 8ish, at point blank range the DN will more or less blow away a CM and survive well enough to be capable of blowing the other one away afterwards. If the DN goes speed 8 with an accelerate at key points then the CMs can't really out turn him at shorter ranges either. At speed 16 the CM is the same turn arc as the speed 8 DN, and that doesn't account for the HET. The DN will always be able to HET and hit hard before you can fire at him again if the CMs charge in, so you will probably never get the chance to hit that down shield a secomd time if you follow that strategy. Given how unlikely it is that there will still be 2 battleworthy CMs after a close range exchange, he only needs a single HET to bring weapons to bear on the 2nd CM if it stays close, cos it won't be combat effective afterwards.


You need to check some of your assumptions. At point blank, it's true the DN will blow away a CM. However the CMs with 6 overloaded disrupters, 8 PH-1, and 4 PH-3 at range 1 will average 107 damage. That's a down 1 shield and 63 internals.

I'm pretty sure a fresh CM can deal with a DN with 63 internals and a down 1 shield.

Given an 8 Speed DN, it won't even get to that position. The DN will always have a CM on a rear shield where its disrupters can't fire.
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kahuna wrote:
I tend to agree with Storyelfs logic on this one. Again, for the reasons I mentioned previously. What's cool about FC is that it isn't like comic book heroes. You know those discussions you (well I) got into asking who would win between Superman and the Hulk or Batman and Wolverine. In FC you can actually take it to the board and prove your points. So, when are you two facing off? I'd love to hear the results of the duel. Very Happy


I intend to have a game with a friend in the next couple of weeks to test out this battle! Very Happy
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes, you should fight battles on instinct, not calculation. Though calculations help shape your instinct for the better...

And if instinct shaped calculation, the calculation is flawed.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Balanced scenarios:

I can just imagine the conversation between Cdrs at two opposing SB/BSs:

Hey Chappie, I'm sending out a couple FFs today -- Keep that nasty BC cooped up, let the little guys get some experience --
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Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And a high energy turn with a CM in your rear arc should be expected at that point Mojo. The DN only has to cripple one of your ships and take less internals to win.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1875

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
It matters a lot.
No it doesn't. The CMs have more power left over after paying for speed.

it matters because it affects what other things each ship can do. the DN at speed 24 and overloads can't pay for batterries,at speed 8 it can pay for all overloads and batteries. At 16 or 8+ it can battery everything and fire standard loads (for several turns anyway).

Quote:
If the DN stays at speed 8, then the CM that faces the DN never go into 8 range. One of them stays at the front of the DN at greater than 8 and the other goes around the DN and only closes to within 8 from the rear of the DN. There's a huge difference in expected damage output from range 8 and range 15 and the slow DN has no capability of stopping one of the CMs from reaching optimal fire range while the other one threatens the other side. Except for the HET which is expensive in energy and can be safely done only once.


Once you split up you can't effectively use the drones from both ships against the DN drones as you described earlier. 1 of the ships has to deal with upto 12 drones with no help, A single CM can only really deal with that by stepping away from the fight, run or use most weapons to shoot them down. That makes a serious dent in its ability to close and do anything useful.

What is 1 CM at less than 8 going to do? with the other CM on the far side. At range 8 with full overloads (so not able to go speed 24) it is doing 20 damage, -7 from batteries ie. 13 on a different shield to the other CM. The other CM is doing about 3 damage. The DN can stick to firing at the longer range CM for about 18 net damage, so it is still out damaging the CMs, and the CMs cannot afford to take more damage per turn especially if they are spreading there damage around different shields.

At best the closing CM can go to range 0 and do about 56 damage - 7 for 49 damage, about 19 internals. If you've had to use CM drones to kill the DN drones, the DN can still fire 11 ph3 and 3 ph1 without turning round, doing about 60 damage or about 30 internal. Thats pretty sad, the rear end of the DN can do more damage to the CM than it can do to the DN with its main weapons.

Mainly avoiding ph3s, you can close in to range 4 where you can do about 32 - 7 or about 25 (not even through the rear shield). However, you have committed a cardinal sin, with 1 CM in close and another to far to help (and on another shield anyway) the DN can HET, and close. You either turn and run taking an alpha up the backside whilst doing nothing back, or take a closer than the range 4 strike you were planning. A head on strike at range 1 (say) leaves you doing about zero internals (averges to exactly the front shield plus 7 battery) whilst taking upwards of 100 (70 internals) depending on what he has in arc. The 2nd ship is now out of position for hitting the downed shield and the DN can simply move away from the CM and increase speed next turn if it wants whilst it rotates shields and reposistons itself for dealing with the 2nd ship.


Quote:
The basic math is that the CMs won't stay at range 15 at the same shield. It's likely the DN will be shooting at 16+ at one of them while the other one darts in at closer than 15 where the DN's weapons won't reach.


Mm, now you go from a range 8 split to a range 15 split. I think you are missing the point here, at range 15 your damage is so neglible in the face of 7 batteries that the DN isn't going down in a month off sundays (well ok, with no shield repair it takes about 38 turns for 2 CM to strip the DN of shields at that range). Just to be clear the DN does more average net damage to a single CM at range 16-25 than both CMs do to it at range 15, and the CMs are now splitting their minor damage across bigger shields. Even if the CM reinforces it is taking an average 7 whilst doing a split 6 to the DN. If you get it wrong and get hit at 15 the CM takes 18ish instead.

Quote:
Quote:

The DN can go speed 16 whilst doing that (8+ more likely). What the CMs do is up to them.

Not doing all the things you want it to do, firing all overloads and all phasers and and using 14 power to reduce incoming damage.


That was about long range dueling, overloads are not a factor at range 15. 14 for reinforcement, 12 for speed 8, 19 for disr and ph1 leaves 10 for accel. For 3 turns he can use 2 batteries to accel every impulse, not that he needs to at long range.

Quote:
You need to check some of your assumptions. At point blank, it's true the DN will blow away a CM. However the CMs with 6 overloaded disrupters, 8 PH-1, and 4 PH-3 at range 1 will average 107 damage. That's a down 1 shield and 63 internals.


At least one of them will lose 7 to reinforcement (56 internal), at range 0 there is still a (not great) chance the second will also take 7 reinforcment. Given the CMs can't close at full speed with full overloads they may not be quite making range 0 either. At range 1 they drop to an average 90 damage with a good chance of having both volleys reinforced, for only 32 average internals.

We then get back to what does that do to the DN as discussed earlier- with 60 internals and an even spread of DAC rolls it loses (critical systems);
12 power
4 battery
2 drone
2 disr
5 ph3.

Undoubtedly that won't be the precise distribution, but it gives an idea.

It can repair 2 power with DC. Rotate 5 shield boxes (so it can reinforce for 3 again).

If that was at the end of the turn and the Cm is still right next to it, then next turn it can HET (making sure it is shield 2 or 6) and fire more than the CM can. Or it has enough power to go speed 32 (on thr above distribution) to pull away and use DC to get back systems and rotate shields around, and once at longer range again it is easier to keep that weaker shield protected from a single ship.


Last edited by storeylf on Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:09 am; edited 3 times in total
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
Kahuna wrote:
I tend to agree with Storyelfs logic on this one. Again, for the reasons I mentioned previously. What's cool about FC is that it isn't like comic book heroes. You know those discussions you (well I) got into asking who would win between Superman and the Hulk or Batman and Wolverine. In FC you can actually take it to the board and prove your points. So, when are you two facing off? I'd love to hear the results of the duel. Very Happy


I intend to have a game with a friend in the next couple of weeks to test out this battle! Very Happy


If I could ever be bothered to work out how to use the online thingymumjigs I'd love to play that game with you.
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Active Ingredient
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 14 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An option for those who want to fight it out is of course FCOL. (Nobody is online tonight. Sad )

If you don’t want to join but still want to give this battle a try, you could always take 2 Fleet D7s (free with demo account) vs. a Fleet C8. (140 pts vs. 142 pts.) Just post in the FCOL section and you should be able to find a member to show you the FCOL ropes and then take you on as the C8.
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Kahuna
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 139
Location: Spokane, WA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fight! Fight! Fight!

Err, you know what I mean. I've no idea how to use that online thingy doohicker game either. But I hope you guys get to try it out and let us know how it went.
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't post further until I have the results. I'm going to try 2 tests, 1 with a close and blast with everything you've got, and the 2nd with a long range sniping duel with 1 CM always attempting to hit the rear of the DN. It should be interesting. Very Happy
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
I won't post further until I have the results. I'm going to try 2 tests, 1 with a close and blast with everything you've got, and the 2nd with a long range sniping duel with 1 CM always attempting to hit the rear of the DN. It should be interesting.

If the CMs actually split up, my money goes all the way on the DN. At that point the DN does go speed 24 so he can chase down an isolated CM and rip it to shreds.
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