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One big vs. two not-so-big
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, the BB's are the equivilaent of two BC's, not two BCH's. Maybe one BC and one BCH, since the Gorn BB is one of the strogest in the galaxy, but even there it's not a sure victory.
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mojo jojo
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Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kahuna wrote:
Although I agree with you Mojo that overall the smaller ships should win, I don't know if your figures quite work out. When the big ship gets hit, he has ALL of that shield to work with. When the little guys get hit, they only have one shield at a time to work with. Meaning, that for the same amount of damage on smaller ship dies and the BB gets hurt.

For example, if the BB does 65 points of damage, against one ship that's 30-40 internal. If the smaller ships do the exact damage, that's only 20 internal. With the padding and the extra power, that means a lot less damage just happened to the BB compared to a likely crippled smaller ship. This assumes of course that both teams just sit there and fire away until one side blows up.

I still believe the smaller ships will win mostly due to manueverability, weapon arcs, distribution of damage, and critical alpha strikes on wounded shields.


The thing is that they're not going to be doing equal damage to each other. The 2 BCHs have more firepower if centerlined than the BB, and they're far better able to be in position to use all that firepower because of better turn mode.

If you compare alpha strikes at all ranges (assuming all plasmas are bolted), average damage is:

Range BB BCH
1 165.00 205.33
2 155.67 192.00
3 139.67 168.00
4 130.33 154.67
5 126.33 149.33
6 77.67 91.33
7 77.67 91.33
8 77.67 91.33
9 62.83 71.33
10 62.83 71.33
11 32.83 36.00
12 32.83 36.00
13 32.83 36.00
14 32.83 36.00
15 32.83 36.00

Pretty significant advantage at all ranges for the 2 BCHs. I'm assuming complete centerlined attacks which are for the BB:

2 PL-R
2 PL-S
2 PL-F
4 PL-D
12 PH-1
5 PH-3

For the 2 BCHs, I'm assuming:

6 PL-S
4 PL-F
16 PH-1
8 PH-3

If you compare reload turns where only phasers are available, the 2 BCHs have an even bigger advantage in expected damage:

Range BB BCH
1 82.33 114.67
2 73.00 101.33
3 57.00 77.33
4 47.67 64.00
5 43.67 58.67
6 27.67 37.33
7 27.67 37.33
8 27.67 37.33
9 12.83 17.33
10 12.83 17.33
11 12.83 17.33
12 12.83 17.33
13 12.83 17.33
14 12.83 17.33
15 12.83 17.33

This is a rather simplistic analysis since I'm assuming everything is bolted and no plasma's are launched as seeking weapons, but that factor should be a wash.
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinecone wrote:
Also, the BB's are the equivilaent of two BC's, not two BCH's. Maybe one BC and one BCH, since the Gorn BB is one of the strogest in the galaxy, but even there it's not a sure victory.


Pointwise, the Gorn BB is about equal to 2 BCHs.
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Points do not mean everything. 1000 points of Fed CA's wont defeat 1000 points of Klingon D5W's (which, admittedly, is one of the best ships around for it's value.)
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1881

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
Let's take another exactly equal matchup. A Kzinti DN vs 2 CMs. 244 pts each.

DN has:

6 Disrupters
6 Drone Racks
3 ADD
7 PH-1
13 PH-3

55+7 Power

The 2 CMs have:

6 Disrupters
8 Drone Racks
4 ADD
8 PH-1
4 PH-3

60+4 total power.

Again the DN has a significant advantage in hull boxes. However, the 2 CMs have much more total shields. 60 total front vs 44 for the DN and 48 vs 36 for each of the other shields. Plus turn mode B vs E should be a huge advantage.

Unless the DN can close to 2 hexes where its PH-3 advantage can carry the day, I would bet on the 2 CMs.


I'll take the DN any day. It can control 12 drones, 1 target CM will struggle to deal with 12 drones, it either runs or uses just about avery weapon it has to beat the drones, effectively 1 opponent negated. The other CM can probably help, but that is still detracting from their offense. The DN on the other hand can swat 12 drones down with barely a blink.

You can't compare the overall power/shields, the CMs have to work with what they have, they each have to pay for movement etc. 30 shields go down a lot faster than 44 point shields. Add in 7 batteries against 2 on the target and you have a much more sturdy shield. Even if the 2nd CM is still able to add in its Disr then in a range 15 fight you are looking at about 6 and 9 damage per volley from the CM, and 18 from the DN. Speed depending the DN can battery that down to 0 and 2, whereas the CM can get it down it to 16. An attritional battle is not in favor of the CMs.

At the other extreme a range 0 pass will see the CMs do about 100 with Disr and ph1 (but that really won't happen as 1 CM won't get through 12 drones to deliver all that). The DN can output a similiar amount whilst using ph3 vs drones. The DN takes some 56 internals, but it has 7 FHull, 20 RHull, 6 cargo, 9 labs, 14 other yellows, i.e enough padding to come out pretty well on average. It's obviously quite variable, but if you assume an even spread of DAC rows, broadly speaking it will be down somthing like 12 power, 2 drone, 2 disr, and a few ph3. A CM takes 70 odd internals, thats not far of being destroyed. Even after taking a 100 point hit the DN is still capable of taking on an intact CM.
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mojo jojo
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Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:

I'll take the DN any day. It can control 12 drones, 1 target CM will struggle to deal with 12 drones, it either runs or uses just about avery weapon it has to beat the drones, effectively 1 opponent negated. The other CM can probably help, but that is still detracting from their offense. The DN on the other hand can swat 12 drones down with barely a blink.

You can't compare the overall power/shields, the CMs have to work with what they have, they each have to pay for movement etc. 30 shields go down a lot faster than 44 point shields. Add in 7 batteries against 2 on the target and you have a much more sturdy shield. Even if the 2nd CM is still able to add in its Disr then in a range 15 fight you are looking at about 6 and 9 damage per volley from the CM, and 18 from the DN. Speed depending the DN can battery that down to 0 and 2, whereas the CM can get it down it to 16. An attritional battle is not in favor of the CMs.

At the other extreme a range 0 pass will see the CMs do about 100 with Disr and ph1 (but that really won't happen as 1 CM won't get through 12 drones to deliver all that). The DN can output a similiar amount whilst using ph3 vs drones. The DN takes some 56 internals, but it has 7 FHull, 20 RHull, 6 cargo, 9 labs, 14 other yellows, i.e enough padding to come out pretty well on average. It's obviously quite variable, but if you assume an even spread of DAC rows, broadly speaking it will be down somthing like 12 power, 2 drone, 2 disr, and a few ph3. A CM takes 70 odd internals, thats not far of being destroyed. Even after taking a 100 point hit the DN is still capable of taking on an intact CM.


The DN is paying 1.5 pts per move. Each CM is paying .75 per move. Total power costs for equal movement is exactly the same between the 2 sets of ships. The CMs have turn mode B whereas the DN has turn mode E. HUGE advantage to the CMs. I just don't see the DN as being capable of inflicting equal damage given the CMs will be running circles around the DN. And if 12 drones are a problem, then the CMs simply aim their drones at the DN drones. Problem solved.

I suppose if the CM decides to just fight a frontal battle and choose not to use their advantage in maneuverability that they might have a problem, but the smart money's on the CMs.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you guys are still ignoring the problem of two ships across a hexspine.
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Active Ingredient
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the responses. This is getting interesting. Very Happy

OK. It looks like if the big ship and two small ships exchange alphas, then the big ship wins. Even if the two small ships deal a little more damage, the fight would still go to the big guy.

So the way to take care of this is by using the maneuverability of the smaller ships to make sure that they put out even more damage than the big ship. Enough to compensate for the big ship’s larger shields, more hull, etc.

Could someone give me an example of how this would occur? Ex: What relative positions/arcs are needed? And how to get there before the big ship smacks one of the two little guys?
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Wolverin61
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Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 497
Location: Mississippi

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think whichever player rolls hotter will win no matter which side it is. At least that's always the way it seems to go whenever I play.
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Kahuna
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 139
Location: Spokane, WA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolverin61 wrote:
I think whichever player rolls hotter will win no matter which side it is. At least that's always the way it seems to go whenever I play.


Heh, well you can never predict the dice, that's for sure. Most games are that way. However, you can mitigate that randomness to some degree with sound tactics.

In response to which ranges and angles offer the best strike while not taking the damage from the big ship...well that's almost infinite in possibilities. Most races depend on centerlining you to inflict their alpha strike, so stay out of those. Klingon would be trickier as it is more lethal in an oblique attack, so perhaps stay tight behind it if you can. Don't get caught chasing too closely a plasma race or you'll eat them before you can avoid them. And if it's Seltorian, just stay away from the FA and don't drop your shields without thinking it through. I mean the variables are almost endless.
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Requete
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Leander, TX

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolverin61 wrote:
I think whichever player rolls hotter will win no matter which side it is. At least that's always the way it seems to go whenever I play.


Heh. Rolling dice is for chumps. Corner 'em, close to Range 1 and let 'em have it. Photons and ESGs are auto hits, and Ph-Gs can't ever do too badly at that range. But never, ever leave it to chance! Laughing
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1881

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:

The DN is paying 1.5 pts per move. Each CM is paying .75 per move. Total power costs for equal movement is exactly the same between the 2 sets of ships. The CMs have turn mode B whereas the DN has turn mode E. HUGE advantage to the CMs. I just don't see the DN as being capable of inflicting equal damage given the CMs will be running circles around the DN. And if 12 drones are a problem, then the CMs simply aim their drones at the DN drones. Problem solved.

I suppose if the CM decides to just fight a frontal battle and choose not to use their advantage in maneuverability that they might have a problem, but the smart money's on the CMs.


I realise the overall power to move a certain speed is the same across ships, however, there is more to it than that. You can't really just add up power and shields and say the smaller ships are better off.

Power wise the the most obvious point is the power buffer as damage is taken. Lose a single point of power and the CMs lose >1 move point whereas the DN loses <1 move point. Take the equal exchange of 100 point of damage noted earlier taking 12 power off the DN. That drops it 1 speed category. 12 power off a CM drops it 2 categories. The fact that the 2 CMs had more total shields didn't help the victim who also takes 14 more damage than the DN in an even exchange, probably losing it more power. Larger ships tend to be less affected by putting extra power to weapons, an extra 6 power to o/l 3 disr costs the DN 4 movement whereas the CM loses 8 movement. A more subtle bonus the DN has is his damage control can repair 2 power a turn, A CM can only repair 1.

Yes the CMs can use their drones to shoot down the DN drones, but that is just leaving the CM wasting more of there supposed offensive edge trying to protect themselves, whilst leaving the DN more spare power.

The smaller ships certainly have a turning advantage, but how do they take advantage of that? The DN has pretty good weapon arc coverage, at long range the turning edge is largely moot as you can't really out turn someone at range 9-15, and the DN can outshoot you at long range (due to single volley effect and better shields) so there is no real advantage to using the turn bonus to keep the range (sabredance). At short range the DN only needs 1 volley to take a CM out the fight, whilst being able to largely soak up an alpha from the CMs. It's very hard to close against a ship without giving 1 decent o/l shot. There is no range where the the CMs have an obvious advantage in terms of firepower effect, so the DN can afford to go slower (giving it battery or o/l power and a smaller turn radius) as he has no real need to close and isn't overly scared of the close range fight. The CMs have a further problem closing, the general point of closing is to deliver a big o/l alpha, but in order to o/l and fire phasers they are restricted to something like 18 move points. That is not enough to close fast enough and keep out of arc of weapons. If they do close fast then they can't deliver the killer (or not exactly killer in this case) alpha before the DN wipes one of them. Once you are in a turning knife fight it is harder to keep shooting the same shield as the shield arcs tend to change very rapidly, that again favors the the DN as he has larger shields to keep battering down. At least one ship is likely to be badly mauled before you get the CMs behind the DN, and then he can HET to maul the other one if he really needs to.

Whilst I'm not advoctaing the DN can snooze through the fight, I really think he has a noticeable edge in that match up.

PS Savedfromwhat: I'm not ignoring the hex spline, you already mentioned it. though that is where the CM turn mode does give them an edge as the DN will generally be moving first so the CM can more readily avoid the problem. Although again that is something else that works to the DN edge at close range where hex splines are more frequent.
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Lieutenant JG


Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should be on Fed Com Online tonight.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to try out one of these 2 vs. 1 battles and then I'll post the report.

But no laughing at my poor perfomance! Laughing Embarassed Laughing
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, let's compare a full 4 hex alpha strike with each ship. Both ships are moving 24, so that's 36 power used for each set of ships.

The DN has:

6 Disrupters (3 overloaded)
7 PH-1
2 PH-3

This requires 26 power, or 62 total power including movement. That DN has only 55+7, so he can fire all weapons and maintain 24 speed exactly once.

The CMs have:

6 Disrupters (4 overloaded)
8 PH-1


This requires 28 power, or 64 total power including movement.

Overloading Disrupters in both cases is more efficient than firing PH-3s, so I'm assuming overloaded disrupters in the 1st exchange.

So average damage at range 4 is:

DN inflicts 51.5 points of damage with the range 4 alpa strike, and the CMs inflict 57.3 damage with the range 4 alpha strike on average. Neither side has any spare power to absorb damage through batteries.

This results in 21.5 internal on 1 CM and 13.3 internal on the DN.

Due to the superior turn mode on the CMs, I'm assuming they can always hit the down shield of the DN if they feel like it, whereas the damaged CM can always face a good shield toward the DN. However, even if you continue the 4 hex exchange through down shields:

A 2nd such exchange would maybe inflict 40-45 damage each side at range 4 since some PH-3's would be lost, batteries would be gone so fewer overloads, and the damaged CM would lose more weapons. This leaves a mostly dead CM and a DN with 50-60 internals.

Can a DN with 50-60 internals and a down 1 shield face a fresh CM in combat who can always maneuver to hit the down 1 shield? I don't think so. For one thing, the 2nd CM has 30 fresh shields whereas every hit inflicted on the DN at this point is an internal.
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Sneaky Scot
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you can always assume that the CM will turn a fresh shield, just as you can't always assume that the DN gets hit through a down shield. A lot will depend on the skill of manoeuvre employed by the captains. There's also an imponderable if you're actually flying the 2 smaller ships with 2 players against one player in the DN. Sometime, the 2 players won't always quite stick to the battle plan they thought they agreed. I remember a SFB match with multiple players on each side (Klingons vs Tholians IIRC) where one of the Tholians chose to ignore the battle plan and closed on the Klingon squadron unsupported. As Klingon Squadron Commodore, I took the opportunity to demolish the lone Tholian before his squadron mates could help him by ordering all ships to fire drones, which promptyl overwhelmed his defences, allowing the phasers and disruptors to finish him off at no loss to the Klingon group.

Sometimes the big guy wins, sometimes the little guys win. All in all, it's one of the more exciting ways to play pickup games, particularly if you have 3 players.
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