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PF's in BoM?
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Kahuna
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Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, if we don't have to have 6 ships everytime, then that could be cool. I just don't want the headache of playing a flotilla again.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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Joined: 16 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said one time about Andromedan's --

You don't want the headache, don't play them, the people wanting to play either are willing to put up with that headache ---
Let them deal with whatever the rules require ---
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Kahuna
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
Like I said one time about Andromedan's --

You don't want the headache, don't play them, the people wanting to play either are willing to put up with that headache ---
Let them deal with whatever the rules require ---


I think you might be missing the point. The point is to hope for, nay encourage simplicity remain in FC. As myself and many others have responded, we'd like to see MOST of SFB material make its way into FC. We'd love the option to play them. However, we want it done in a way that keeps the gameplay simple, fast, clean, and still fun to play. If the extra clutter are allowed into FC, then they will invariably have to be played. Someone from my group will want to run PFs because they're fun and available. Someone will want to run a carrier or a SCS. Someone will want a tender with its full flotilla. Someone will read the scenarios and think that one looks fun.

If I wanted to play with all the headaches that you call them, I would play SFB. That option is already there for us. I currently play FC because I chose to avoid the extra headaches I used to get from playing a long session of SFB.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be clear, gunboats does NOT necessarily equal tenders, carriers, and SCSs. Those are all independent and separate decision points.

If "gunboats" are added to FC proper, that doesn't have to mean anything other than overgunned mini-ships now being available in the ship selection. Really, it would not be any different than adding in police cutter sized ships with real weapons.

Adding in tenders and gunboat leaders is a separate issue. If they can be easily added without disrupting the overall game, great. If not, they can be dropped or ignored while still including gunboats.

Carriers and SCSs are a completely different issue. We already know that fighters are BoM, so neither of those should be a concern or discussion point, really. If gunboats need to be only in BoM, then argue that point on its own merits. Please don't drag fighters, carriers, and SCSs into it when they don't need to be.

EDIT: I am not saying gunboats will be, or even should be, in FC proper. I am just asking that the issue at hand not be confused with the core issue at hand by adding in ancillary (SCS) and irrelevant (fighter) issues.
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jeffery smith
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:04 am    Post subject: pf's in BoM Reply with quote

you may also want to review the topics that have gone before on this and the fighter issue. it will give you a better ideal of what not to "rehash" in this topic.
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Hod K'el
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:32 am    Post subject: PTB's Reply with quote

I like the idea of having gunboats as a BOM II item. Don't have to use them if you don't want them.

'Just to be clear, gunboats does NOT necessarily equal tenders, carriers, and SCSs. Those are all independent and separate decision points.'

And in this case I agree, but my vote is for a BIG (read this as a FLEET) carrier. 24 fighters or 32 fighters or ??? I won't say another thinig about gunboats if I get a big carrier...hint, hint.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If some kind of SCS or PFT is ever done in BoM to match gunboats, would it be better to have the Fleet Scale flotillas be the same size as in Squadron Scale (and make Fleet Scale PF cards) or to simply halve the number of boats in a Fleet-scale flotilla?


I kind of like the second option, since it would be in proportion with the number of mech links the Fleet scale tender would likely have - but some empires' flotillas might not scale down properly.


Alpha, Baduvai and Qixa gunboats come in flotillas of 6 - which could go down to 3 in Fleet Scale. The likes of the Iridani or Mæsrons use 4 (2 in FS) while the Drex go for 8 (4 in FS)...

...but some empires, like the Koligahr and Loriyill, have 5 to a flotilla instead. Rounding them up to 3, or down to 2, in Fleet Scale might be a tricky call to make.


And if booster packs are not to make it over, that could make the Baduvai gunboat that bit more competitive in its weight class - though would the afterburner system for Omega boats also go?
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Kahuna
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Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly don't want to rehash this stuff if someone has already posted in it six months ago, but... Twisted Evil

If they look at each gunboat as a small ship, then it wouldn't work to have flotillas at only half size. I'd think the gunboats would have to be.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Kahuna. What You're suggesting (though this is no blow against you), is like the Fleet Scale Plasma Ships, using the first idea (Use only half the normal power for each plasma). It just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of Fleet Scale. If you play a Fleet scale scenario, there is the same amount of ships, just that they are smaller.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And there's an idea to think about. How do you get a Fleet Scale PF?
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't fleet scale PFs just be Heavy Fighters --- Smile
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Kahuna
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another curious thing to see developed. Currently, fighter numbers are halved in fleet scale. But, if Gunboats are just small ships, then their power and weapons would also be halved. Hehe, essentially just heavy fighters with their own energy allocation and weapon(s) chart. I know the crew is working on all of this, but it will be a curious thing to see get developed.
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jmt
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kahuna wrote:
Another curious thing to see developed. Currently, fighter numbers are halved in fleet scale. But, if Gunboats are just small ships, then their power and weapons would also be halved. Hehe, essentially just heavy fighters with their own energy allocation and weapon(s) chart. I know the crew is working on all of this, but it will be a curious thing to see get developed.


Would there even be a fleet scale version of a single gun boat?

In Squadron scale, gunboats could be either in flotillas (planetary defense or base station defense) or as 1-2 ships to fill out the remaining points in a 500-point fleet game.

In Fleet scale, a single gunboat might be too small to record. Rather would you get 2 for 1 - 2 ships on a single card with their own power chart (like with the unarmed transport) and bought as a single "ship".
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Kahuna
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Location: Spokane, WA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha,

And then we'd end up with a flotilla as a single unit, halving its size for fleet action. Hmmm, I like it, but we'll see what they decide to do. I've always been for (and currently do so in my house rules) combining fighters into 3 fighter flights and, by extension, I'd like to do Gunboats as 3 unit flotillas.

However, I'm sure Steve and the crew will have a really neat and clean way for us to do these once BoM rolls out.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the whole point with gunboats is that they are not 'true' starships anyway.


If you keep the numbers in a flotilla the same, how do you deal with the mech links on their tenders? In theory, you could say that each link can handle 2 boats in Fleet Scale, but that sounds a bit on the messy side for me.


Leaving the issue of scaling down the odd flotillas aside, I'd still say that going with the fighter option might be the way to go.

For what it's worth.
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