Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Andromedans and new Aliens Questions.
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Starsuperion
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:38 pm    Post subject: The Andromedans and new Aliens Questions. Reply with quote

Hello Fellow Members of the Fedcom Games! I am a new comer here, and my friends and I just discovered the exciting world and realm of Federation Commander!!

We have been looking for a miniature war game that would be inexpensive and fun for a long time. The Universe known as "Starfleet" is intriguing to us. I love the fact that it is based on the classic tv series and the cartoon universe! there are so many races that actually get paid attention to, it is amazingly cool!

Now my friend has joined this forum as well, and he has chosen to play the Kzinti, an awesome race with amazingly cool ships! I want to play the Andromedans and I love their invasion premise. Unfortunately All I have seen of their ships is what is in the 2400 section.

So my questions regarding the Andromedans is 2 part:

1. Are their any new ship miniatures in the works that will be released for this race?

2. When can I expect the rules for using them in combat to be released?


I am so glad we found Fedcom, it is exciting to find a cool miniature war game with such dynamic ship miniatures, and a plethora of races and a rich back story. We have been looking for a game that emphasizes game play over rules. I hated other miniature war games, that instead of playing, you spent time getting a PHD in the rules first and had your own personal computer trying to determine what you did when you rolled dice.. that is an exaggeration, but this game Fedcom is just the thing we were looking for!

Sorry if I am being gushy about this, but like I said, I am a new comer and I am very excited about this game.

I have some other questions too about new miniatures and rules coming out.

Vudars, I have seen their ships online and am Wondering if they will be debuting in the future as well..
http://home.spaceempires.net/shipyards-details-122-Vudar_Confederation.html

Andorians, I have also been wondering if the classic Andorians will be showing up too, I love their culture and like how they are deceptive in battles, they would make a great fleet to play as well..
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/sven/andorian-top-side.jpg
http://spaceship.brainiac.com/MiniModelMadness/Andorian.jpg

anyhow, thanks for listening to my topic, and I await eagerly to discuss more about this "Starfleet" universe, and learning more about the exciting realm of Fedcom!!!
_________________
Live Long, Prosper, and Party!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
OGOPTIMUS
Captain


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 981

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, welcome. Fedcom does indeed have a rich history (through SFB) that you seem to be immersing yourself in.

As for the Andromedans, IIRC, they are still scheduled for the FC: War and Peace expansion which should be out in late June of next year in time for the Origins Game Fair. Though there is also a lot of playtesting still to be done.

New miniatures have usually accompanied these types of releases, so that would be your best bet. Perhaps not ready at release, but definitely somewhere in the sculpting/casting/production spectrum.

The Vudar are scheduled to be released in that module as well. There is a preview of their rules in Communique #35 available at the Commander's Circle. And if you didn't see already, a whole series of Vudar ships is due to be released soon as well.

As for the Andorians, they are included in the Federation in the current FC rules. SFB has rules for them only in the "Early Years" period which takes place about 100 years before the General War FC setting, and uses "national" fleets from the member states (Earth, Vulcan, Andorian, Rigellian, etc.)

And once again, welcome. Don't hesitate to ask any more questions.
_________________
O.G. OPTIMUS


NEW Page | OLD Page
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
djdood
Fleet Captain


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2922
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing to note, the Andorian ship Starsuperion linked to is from the TV series "Enterprise" and so that design won't be appearing in any ADB product (they do things based on TOS and Animated series, only).

The Andorians are definitely in the SFU (and as OGOptimus said, they had unique ships in the "early years" before the Federation really jelled) but those ships look completely different.

Right now those early Andorian ships (and Vulcans, etc.) appear only in one of the expansions to the legacy Star Fleet Battles game (the [much] older and [much, much] bigger brother of FedCom).
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1949
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's also an unofficial set of playtest rules for the Andros, made by one of the forumers here. I can't remember who it was but I may have the info somewhere.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Steve Cole
Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 3051

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who is the spaceempires.net person and does he have permission to use ADB, Inc. copyrighted stuff?
_________________
The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1949
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:
Who is the spaceempires.net person and does he have permission to use ADB, Inc. copyrighted stuff?

I would imagine, respectively: a) we don't know, and b) we can guess Wink

Steve, if you don't know the answer to the second question, the answer must be 'no'! Or perhaps you were being rhetorical....
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1949
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starsuperion: check out this thread - http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1563 where Andros were discussed a few months ago. Pneumonic81 is the guy.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Starsuperion
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OGOPTIMUS wrote:
First of all, welcome. Fedcom does indeed have a rich history (through SFB) that you seem to be immersing yourself in.

As for the Andromedans, IIRC, they are still scheduled for the FC: War and Peace expansion which should be out in late June of next year in time for the Origins Game Fair. Though there is also a lot of playtesting still to be done.

New miniatures have usually accompanied these types of releases, so that would be your best bet. Perhaps not ready at release, but definitely somewhere in the sculpting/casting/production spectrum.

The Vudar are scheduled to be released in that module as well. There is a preview of their rules in Communique #35 available at the Commander's Circle. And if you didn't see already, a whole series of Vudar ships is due to be released soon as well.

As for the Andorians, they are included in the Federation in the current FC rules. SFB has rules for them only in the "Early Years" period which takes place about 100 years before the General War FC setting, and uses "national" fleets from the member states (Earth, Vulcan, Andorian, Rigellian, etc.)

And once again, welcome. Don't hesitate to ask any more questions.


Ah, well that clears up my questions regarding the Andros.. though I can't wait for them to surface and come out!! Sorry it took awhile for me to get back to you, I have been mulling over how awesome your starfleet collection is, and I'm quite jealous!! Very Happy Respectfully...

Anyhow, My friends and I are new to this, though they are old Miniature warfare gamers, and I am not.. Between Warhammer and some others they have played, and I have not gamed with them.. lack of interest in the medium was my primary issue..

But with Fedcom, my friend found a genre that fits me well, it has the TOS andf cartoon universe wrapped into it, and since it is a cartoon series that I used to watch in the 80's on Nickelodeon, it is kinda dear to my heart... the inclusion of so many aliens with their own empires is intriguing to me. It's not a game devoted strictly to the Feds, Kilingon, and Romulans..which is an aspect that I adore. We checked out SFB but in the end decided that with the ease of the rules for Fedcom, a novice like me could get into the game, and really enjoy it for the first time..first impressions mean allot and to play a table top game, with time set aside, money spent, and painting of miniatures, you really want a rules system that is easy, and focuses on having fun in game play as apposed to getting too in depth and trying to remember specific rules for each different minute thing in a game..

So I am excited about joining this forum and adding you guys to my friends. Thanks for the heads up!



djdood wrote:
One thing to note, the Andorian ship Starsuperion linked to is from the TV series "Enterprise" and so that design won't be appearing in any ADB product (they do things based on TOS and Animated series, only).

The Andorians are definitely in the SFU (and as OGOptimus said, they had unique ships in the "early years" before the Federation really jelled) but those ships look completely different.

Right now those early Andorian ships (and Vulcans, etc.) appear only in one of the expansions to the legacy Star Fleet Battles game (the [much] older and [much, much] bigger brother of FedCom).


Ah okay, so they are already part of the Feds by the time this game is going.. I gotcha.. mirroring the actual TOS series.. makes sense. SFB is nice but we are gonna stick to Fedcom, it is just amazingly fun and simple enough to learn off the bat.. and that means we can get in and play faster.. set armies, set territories, and as little confusion about where we want to go and play.. thanks for the heads up.



Kang wrote:
There's also an unofficial set of playtest rules for the Andros, made by one of the forumers here. I can't remember who it was but I may have the info somewhere.


Sweet, that would be cool, to atleast test out.. I love the Andros and their designs.. the whole "invaders" aspect is nice as well..they are a cool race.



Steve Cole wrote:
Who is the spaceempires.net person and does he have permission to use ADB, Inc. copyrighted stuff?


probably not, I think it is more of a fan site..



Kang wrote:
Starsuperion: check out this thread http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1563 where Andros were discussed a few months ago. Pneumonic81 is the guy.


Sweet! Awesome link my friend, thanks!

New Questions:
So what about more monsters, the Juggernaut is highly coveted by my friends and I and yet I can find no references to it here on Fedcom's 2400 miniature's page??

Also are there plans to also produce more ships based on the TOS?

Now there are some revised ship designs that have been added to the Star Trek "Rematered" DVD's, are those designs being considered for the Fedcom universe as well? Will ships like the Gorn light fighters be added to the Gorn armada already found in the 2400 Section??

Remastered Site Link:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/tos_ships.htm
Gorn Fighters CGI Link:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/gorn-4views.jpg

What about the inclusion of the Fesarius as either a "monster" ship or an entire fleet and race empire, as seen in the episode "the corbomite maneuver"? the alien race known as the "First Federation" with the child like captain called Balok?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corbomite_Maneuver

Remastered Site Link:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/tos_ships.htm
First Federation Ships CGI Link:
Main powered weapons platform/Flagship:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/tos_ships/fesarius-r.jpg
Smaller Weapons Platform control ship (tug):
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/tos_ships/first-federation-scout-r.jpg
First Federation Buoy/ territory marker:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/tos_ships/first-federation-buoy-r.jpg

it seems to me that the "First Federation" is a group of alien species who value competition and shows of strength according to that episode, and their power structures and ships are based on the use of boundary markers that are glowing cubes set on a diamond axis..

these cubes use minor tractor beams to subdue their opponents.
the larger Weapons Platform is called the Fesarius, and uses gravitational weaponry as their primary weapons..
the First Federation Tug ships are actually the controllers for the giant Fesarius which seems to be their actual weaponry and power stations for recharging their control ships..probably hovering just behind the Fesarius or docking to it for fuel and use of the Gravitational weaponry.. from that episode it also seems that the First Federation are an older "God-like" race with children bodies that possess a super intellect..apparently their race is few in numbers being so old, and they are assigned 1 pilot per ship..not needing any other crew to utilize since their technology is based on automation, creating a huge weakness..

Maybe since they are called the "First Federation" other races singly pilot ships like the Fesarius, since the name "federation" implies other aliens are involved in their sector of space??

I am also assuming that because of the Fesarius Size, no shielding was required to protect it, as it would take hundreds of Phaser banks to disable it..

so with the First Federation as a sort of encounter with the feds, could we possibly see rules regarding them to come out in future expansions? What about their introduction as a race as a whole? I can picture sweet miniatures of the ships, though the size of the Fesarius would have to be a bit more out of scale then what we saw in the episode, maybe even made of plastic would cut costs on production..

An interesting Rule for game fights would be that if you disable the tug, you take out the control center for the larger Weapons platform, thereby disabling it and leaving it open to destruction by combined fleet bombardment..either way, It's just an idea..

Edit: another thing of note is that the FF is based int he TOS, so if the license rights are on that then are they included as an alien race? the FF is a kind of blank slate as far as story and content goes, and much like other races in the Star Trek universe, it could be expanded on in great ways.. maybe even the ships could be colored differently if in an armada, and the control ships could have their own markings on the top to distinguish them from others.. still maybe Larry Niven could be tapped to add an alien Bio to the First Federation and establish their racial and physical structures.. the whole universe of ideas of the TOS and Animated are amazing

in either event, I appreciate your tolerance as I ask some off the wall questions regarding this unique and fantastic game and universe that is quickly expanding..and peaking my interests and imagination..

thanks!
Adam
_________________
Live Long, Prosper, and Party!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3473
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starsuperion wrote:
Also are there plans to also produce more ships based on the TOS?

Now there are some revised ship designs that have been added to the Star Trek "Rematered" DVD's, are those designs being considered for the Fedcom universe as well? Will ships like the Gorn light fighters be added to the Gorn armada already found in the 2400 Section??

In short, no.

The problem is that ADB (the company that produces Federation Commander) has a very specific license with Paramount (the owners of Star Trek). This license says that ADB may not use any Star Trek elements that are not already in the game. So, stuff from TOS and TAS that is not in the game already cannot now be added. Likewise, anything even remotely related to the remastered TOS is completely off limits.

Again, just to stress this, the issue is not that ADB doesn't want to use these items. The issue is that they are specifically prohibited from doing so by Paramount.

This prohibition also includes the "First Federation".
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OGOPTIMUS
Captain


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 981

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starsuperion wrote:
So what about more monsters, the Juggernaut is highly coveted by my friends and I and yet I can find no references to it here on Fedcom's 2400 miniature's page??


There is a Juggernaut mini in the works. There was one produced in very limited quantities a year or so ago, but a newer one is in the pipeline (sculpting/mastering) somewhere.
_________________
O.G. OPTIMUS


NEW Page | OLD Page
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
djdood
Fleet Captain


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2922
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starsuperion - Addendum to the replies above.

Like MJWest said re: ADB's scope with Paramount stuff. However, there are ships and objects int he game already that can fill most roles just fine. Say for example you want a ship like the Antares (from "Charlie X")? The existing APT or Prime Trader would fit the bill very nicely (the APT even happens to look quite a bit like the Antares as-shown in the Remastered episode.

Tony Thomas (scoutdad) is indeed sculpting the new metal mini for the Juggernaut. It's been giving him a really hard time, but last I heard he is making progress.

There have been threads recently with some of us showing off our older, resin-kit Juggies:
Brigman (Dale McKee)
Dan Ibekwe
Jeremy Gray (SWO_Daddy) (some shots of mine there too)
and the old Juggy thread.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Starsuperion
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Starsuperion wrote:
Also are there plans to also produce more ships based on the TOS?

Now there are some revised ship designs that have been added to the Star Trek "Rematered" DVD's, are those designs being considered for the Fedcom universe as well? Will ships like the Gorn light fighters be added to the Gorn armada already found in the 2400 Section??

In short, no.

The problem is that ADB (the company that produces Federation Commander) has a very specific license with Paramount (the owners of Star Trek). This license says that ADB may not use any Star Trek elements that are not already in the game. So, stuff from TOS and TAS that is not in the game already cannot now be added. Likewise, anything even remotely related to the remastered TOS is completely off limits.

Again, just to stress this, the issue is not that ADB doesn't want to use these items. The issue is that they are specifically prohibited from doing so by Paramount.

This prohibition also includes the "First Federation".


that kinda sucks.. sheesh.. what about ADB creating their own aliens and ships?? Is that forbidden Paramount?

OGOPTIMUS wrote:
Starsuperion wrote:
So what about more monsters, the Juggernaut is highly coveted by my friends and I and yet I can find no references to it here on Fedcom's 2400 miniature's page??


There is a Juggernaut mini in the works. There was one produced in very limited quantities a year or so ago, but a newer one is in the pipeline (sculpting/mastering) somewhere.


cool, I hope it is all pewter.. that would rock! Or all Plastic for cost reasons.. I hate working with resin.

djdood wrote:
Starsuperion - Addendum to the replies above.

Like MJWest said re: ADB's scope with Paramount stuff. However, there are ships and objects int he game already that can fill most roles just fine. Say for example you want a ship like the Antares (from "Charlie X")? The existing APT or Prime Trader would fit the bill very nicely (the APT even happens to look quite a bit like the Antares as-shown in the Remastered episode.

Tony Thomas (scoutdad) is indeed sculpting the new metal mini for the Juggernaut. It's been giving him a really hard time, but last I heard he is making progress.

There have been threads recently with some of us showing off our older, resin-kit Juggies:
Brigman (Dale McKee)
Dan Ibekwe
Jeremy Gray (SWO_Daddy) (some shots of mine there too)
and the old Juggy thread.


Wow thanks for the links to the Juggies, and I got to see some sweet shots of the other ships painted in large image formats! great!! that sucks about the license restrictions.. and I am glad you gave me the tip on the charlie X ship!!

So with the licenses restricted to what is already out by Paramount, what is the deal with the new races (Vudar) that have been announced? Were they originally part of SFB? Or are they licensed aliens that just haven't made it into miniature format until recently??


What can we expect to see in the future as far as newer ships and miniatures and such? I will have no doubt, rules questions in the future.. but for now, I am concentrated on finding out what the aliens and scope of newer races are..and hw much of an expanded universe we will end up getting? How far is ADB able to go under the current license?
_________________
Live Long, Prosper, and Party!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3473
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starsuperion wrote:
mjwest wrote:
Starsuperion wrote:
Also are there plans to also produce more ships based on the TOS?

In short, no.

This prohibition also includes the "First Federation".


that kinda sucks.. sheesh.. what about ADB creating their own aliens and ships?? Is that forbidden Paramount?

Obviously not. However, there are already a massive number of aliens already in the game. In Federation Commander alone, we have the various races of the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Gorns, the Kzinti, the Lyrans, and the Hydrans. Plus the Tholians and Seltorians. The Lyrans, Hydrans, and Seltorians are purely ADB inventions.

Plus, next year, the various aliens of the ISC, and the Vudar will be added to Federation Commander.

So, yes, ADB can add (and indeed has added) new races to the Star Fleet Universe. As long as they are of ADB's invention, they can be added. But that wasn't your original question. Your original question only asked if TOS races, such as the First Federation, could be added. And that answer is no.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
djdood
Fleet Captain


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2922
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starsuperion -

One thing to understand: Federation Commander is just one game within the Star Fleet Universe of games (all modern version of which are designed and produced by ADB). They don't do different "settings" (like D&D and some other war games). Every game ADB does right now is set in the SFU and the empires, ships, monsters, etc. all look and act the same way (as closely as possible) in the various games (SFB, FedCom, SFBF, F&E, etc., etc.).

The SFU is based-on TOS and animated Trek, but diverged and went its own way a long, long, time ago (especially once The Motion Picture came out). The SFU became its own animal - a Trekker will instantly recognize the familiar parts of it, but there is a lot more to a fleshed-out game-universe than 79 episodes (and a couple of animated 1/2 hours) can show. In some cases, ADB (wisely) chose to ignore certain things in the shows.

They can (and do) add anything to the SFU that they want to (since the SFU is theirs).

The key thing is that it has to be their design (and Intellectual Property). The issues with Paramount's IP (and Franz Joseph Designs') has already been covered here and in other threads. ADB creates their own content and (as SVC was indicating above) protects it.

BTW - If you haven't read this page, you've missed one of the best introductions to the SFU that is out there.

Star Fleet Battles started it all (w-a-y back in 1979). Most everything started there first and still does; the Andromedans, Vudar, Jindarians, Omega-empires [cue Gary Carney], the various weapons, etc., etc. SFB has dozens of empires in it (if you count the "fringe" stuff like Omega and Simulator empires), literally thousands of ships, and hundreds of pages to explain and cover it all.

With a very few rare exceptions, everything in FedCom is "ported-over" and distilled-down from SFB, which had it first. FedCom gets the flavor, without the bulk (and rules-crunch).

In many cases like the Vudar, they are "fringe" empires in SFB and there just wasn't enough folks clamoring for minis to be produced for them to be a priority over things that were guaranteed to sell. Now that the line is quite fleshed out (and with FedCom expanding the market for the minis) things like the Vudar get a crack at being pewter. IIRC, troubles with those masters have kept them on the bench for a while, but Captains Log 39 says they are finally coming soon.

I hope this helps.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
timp77
Ensign


Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 5
Location: newport news,va

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Starsuperion wrote:
mjwest wrote:
Starsuperion wrote:
Also are there plans to also produce more ships based on the TOS?

In short, no.

This prohibition also includes the "First Federation".


that kinda sucks.. sheesh.. what about ADB creating their own aliens and ships?? Is that forbidden Paramount?

Obviously not. However, there are already a massive number of aliens already in the game. In Federation Commander alone, we have the various races of the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Gorns, the Kzinti, the Lyrans, and the Hydrans. Plus the Tholians and Seltorians. The Lyrans, Hydrans, and Seltorians are purely ADB inventions.

Plus, next year, the various aliens of the ISC, and the Vudar will be added to Federation Commander.

So, yes, ADB can add (and indeed has added) new races to the Star Fleet Universe. As long as they are of ADB's invention, they can be added. But that wasn't your original question. Your original question only asked if TOS races, such as the First Federation, could be added. And that answer is no.


Awesome that ADB designs their own races! hahah starsuperion
Nice topic you started Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 1 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group