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The Andromedans and new Aliens Questions.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdood wrote:

Come to think of it, there's a mini coming for that... Wink

Shameless plug #2. Rolling Eyes
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than hi-jack a non-related thread, I have moved the photos of the Juggernaut to it's own thread in the Minatures section.

Go HERE! to follow along.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See the post above for the reasons behind this edit. - T L Thomas
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They Come as mini's... I am Getting one.

Woo Tony thats awesome. Don't know how you guys do it.
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Starsuperion
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Joined: 06 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
Rather than hi-jack a non-related thread, I have moved the photos of the Juggernaut to it's own thread in the Minatures section.

Go HERE! to follow along.



now that is amazing! I'm so looking forwaqrd to that redesigned and sculpted mini of the Uber cool Juggernaut!! way ta go!
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Starsuperion
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdood wrote:
Starsuperion -

Any new ships, empires, etc. that you design will need to take into account any of its potential adversaries (including the furry Lyrans with their ESG's that hurt so bad when run into). The dirty tricks of the Hydrans, Vudar, and all the other "non-tv" empires are just as dangerous as the tv-guys.


this requires some serious study..though I have yet to play a game of Fed Comm, we are playing sunday, with counters and such.. our miniatures aren't ready for us to use yet, still working on them.. but that is half the fun! Very Happy But as I get deeper and more involved into the ideas and technology behind the SFU, I'm sure my new ship designs and work that I will try to submit to further the universe will be that much more accurate and likely to be held more in scrutiny.. which is great.. I'm expanding my knowledge and all the while it helps me understand the game and the thinking behind it..

Good advice, I need to read upo on the tactics and weaponry of the other races in the game..


Kang wrote:
Weighing in with this feels almost like coming back to topic Wink but I have the disadvantage of the Atlantic time delay....

As 'dood got close to mentioning earlier, the X-ships were the 'historical' mainstay of the campaign against the Andros.

Remember that at the time of the Andro Invasion, the empires in the game had just finished a long-drawn-out, gruelling war that left their economies and their fleets in ruins, followed almost immediately by the ISC War of Pacification. Nobody had enough BIG ships left to field.

This then is part of the reason why the X-ships came to be. More power and weapons, better electronics, better protection - more ship for your money, if you will. And - this is also important - the X-ships were firmly based on existing hulls, thus saving costs even more. If I recall correctly, some of the X-ships were actually converted from existing [surviving?] hulls rather than being built as X-ships from the keel up.

This is also partly why the dreadnoughts were left in the dust.


if that is the case, then why wouldn't it seem feasible for the Feds to create 3 massive command flag ships with the X technology for protection and as floating mobile bases so to speak?? I would think from the perspective of saving costs and such that having 3 massive ships with heavy armaments, and docking facilities would be more cost effective then building a stationary starbase..and with the resources and money saved by overhauling existing ships to the new X tech, they would save money and costs in building cruisers.. allowing the development of 3 massive ships for support roles..

think of it like this, as your fleet is in damage and need of repairs, the Fortress class could come to the fleet, on the battle field, offer cover and in addition tow if necessary those damaged ships to the nearest planet and effect repairs with it's on board ship material and conversion equipment.. the raw materials on a nearby planet could be used to make swift repairs on ships that are too far from any starbase to make it..

this would also prove as a great game ability, to effect repairs during combat..by switching some ships not damaged for those that are.. or shooting in the Fortress class as a special ship, to hold off the enemy while you retract and retreat portions of your fleet... the rules would need refinement.. but it's an idea that could prolong the federation in battles where your enemies fleet cost is cheaper allowing you to become outnumbered..

Kang wrote:
So to build a massive Fortress class would not seem to be economically or historically viable. That said, the FC part of the SF Universe does not necessarily subscribe to the historical timelines or fleet lists. Basically if it's fun, it's in FC - or will be in the future. That seems to be the main thing with FC.


I respectfully disagree with the financial viability that you stated.. I just think with all the cost savings on refitting ships then building them from scratch, and with the added bonus of saving on building "Stationary" starbases, having essentially 3 floating (with warp drive) starbases (fortress class ships) that can roam 3 sections of the Alpha octant in federation territory is more efficient and tactically advantageous.. However, if Fed Comm is the one universe this would fit into easily then I would be happy to just see a large ship end up there..that is the fun of the whole thing anyways. the plethora of choices

Kang wrote:
The comments about the B-10 being the 'high bar' I still think are important, though. Sure, all races get a BB in FC where they didn't in SFB. But my own personal opinion is that the BB is the high bar for all races, otherwise you just end up in a war of escalation - which is I think part of what Steve has successfully tried to avoid all these years. It's a bit like placing a ban on Phaser-4's on all mobile ships - we just don't go there!


hmm I wouldn't say that having a mobile command base, with heavy armaments would be escalation as it would serve for more efficient support roles.. The Fortress class wouldn't be the end all be all of ships, and certainly not indestructible.. just large, and able to fit some roles that would benefit a fleet battle..and have the added benefit of being a mobile starbase..I agree that keeping the tech on a similar level is the way to go with the SFU, however, floating starbases (ships) would seem more of an evolution of thought for "All" empires, as they can regularly supply and bring more support to their ships rather then have their ships limp back home to a starbase for repairs.. or supplies.. to me, it is a logical step in space fleet evolution..

But I would not advocate more then 3 of those in any empire..

Kang wrote:
I once designed a mega-ship for my fleet [the Rigel - looked like an Imperial - class Star Destroyer but without the superstructure] - and that had an FX-mounted battery of six Phaser-4's. I decided to give in to the rules, though, and made it a 'base ship' - kind of a mobile base that has positional stabilisers, so when it had arrived where it was going and was in orbit around a planet, it could be said to have switched on its stabilisers and use its phaser-4's. However, as a mobile combat ship, they became phaser-1's.


So basically you were thinking of the same thing I was.. only you did it first.. I'd be interested in seeing what you came up with for the rules, and maybe assist me in the presentation of the X-tech Fortress class mobile Base Ship.. However, I can't see the Fortress class taking up an orbit unless it had a super strong phaser or photon torpedo weapon it could only shoot from afar..

the idea that having a massive ship be all powerful is not something I can prescribe to, It would have to have draw backs, and would be beneficial for it to have drawbacks, that would require players to field the heavy crusiers or other ships to fill the "blind Spots or Weakness" Gaps in fleet battles or combat.. Alone the fortress class could handle itself, but would eventually need assistance from other ships.. but as a support role, the Fortress class excels and enhances long drawn out fleet battles..



Rich Stokes wrote:
I got the impression (and I could be wrong) that the timeline/tech goes something like this:

Non-tactical warp lets people travel between planets and stars, but you can't do fancy piloting (it's just, "point at that star, hit the accelerator and then slow down when you get near") or use weapons in warp.

Then Tactical Warp is invented, along with warp weaponry. This is basically where the combat modeled in FC becomes possible. Ships can dash about at FTL speeds and shoot each other.

Ships gradually get bigger during the early era, but quickly settle down to the Cruiser and Destroyer classes being the mainstays (with the various other classes filling their niches) and Dreadnoughts really being the biggest hitters, but there are rare Battleships which are even bigger. Things are pretty static until the General War.

(I'm a bit hazy on where the General War fits in. Not the dates so much as which tech was in use by whom when, so I might have some of this a bit wrong)

At the start of the GW, everyone adopts fighters and carriers as the new "big guns" in their fleets. Carriers are bigger than cruisers, but their designed to deliver and protect their fighters rather than as pure hitters.

Later in the war, X-Tech is developed. It's not magic, so much as just better ways of doing the same stuff that older ships could do. At first, existing ships were re-fitted with X-Tech to improve them. (In real life terms, it seems that the X-refits can be thought of as the movies-era tech and refits, although with different aesthetics) Later in the war, new ships are built which incorporate X-Tech into their designs from the drawing-board. X-ships are not bigger than the older ships: they don't have to be because they pack more of a punch (pound-for-pound) than the older ships. Someone with more experience than me can point to the difference between, say, a fed CA and the X refit of same in SFB?

Towards the end of the war (I think) someone (I don't know who) develops a new, much smaller warp engine which can power and drive a much smaller ship over short, tactical distances. These drives cannot be used strategically: that is, they don't work for long enough to get you between star systems without help. This leads to the development of Fast Patrol vessels, also called Gunboats. The idea here is that you take a relatively small ship and slap as many guns, drones and whatnot as you can to it. They're cheap to build, but need to be escorted (by a "tender") who can do the required dumping of warp-whatever-it-is that builds up in these small, cheap engines. Getting a decent hit on a PF will cripple or destroy it, but hey, you have 5 more for the equivalent of a cruiser, so no biggie. They're sort of half way between a fighter and a corvette I guess. Main problem is that they're attrition units, meaning that any strategy which makes use of them is guaranteed to lose a fair number of them. The Federation, for example, found this unacceptable, regarding assigning crew to a PF flotilla as effectively a death sentence. But pretty much everyone else uses them to great effect in both the Alpha and Omega Octants.

I think the timeline ends there. I imagine that the situation post Andro Invasion leaves the Feds building more X-Cruisers/Destroyers and everyone else building a mix of Xships and PFs.

So, interestingly, if anything the ships get smaller as time goes on!

(Do I have this right?)



Wow, excellent assessment..

But I think that the case is made from what you described for a series of 3 no more then that of floating support and huge ships that could act as Starbases with warp and fighters.. you could send in the fleet to engage the enemy surrounding a planet outpost, then once the fleet is engaged, you slip in the fortress class and protect the planet from straglers and random attacks..

then as some ships are damaged you can have them dock and get repairs like they were in a starbase... and then back to fighting..if need be..

this would serve as a great support role for fleets or squads that are too far out from civilized protection and too near an enemy territory where they could gain reinforcements.. by sending in the Fortress class to maintain a support role, you could extend the life of the ships in protecting the planet colony, while reinforcements from the other sectors of the Fed fleet arrive to push the invading enemy back..

lets say you got 3 ships, and the romulans sneak attack with 4 ships.. and your out of range of the rest of the fleet, and the only ship nearby is the floating fortress class.. Starfleet sends it in and it ends up flanking the enemy ships giving a break up in the battle and then falling back to offer support from a distance.. then it acts as a base for your reinforcements to build up a presence and keep that colony safe, effectively winning the battle..

either way, I could be wrong... but the conversation and just the fascinating debate over such things is more important to me then anything else.. this is sooooo much fun! I love this game and this website!! Very Happy
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Mike
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problems I see with the massive mobile fighting bases are:

1. Their mass/size would prohibit combat maneuvers.

2. Whether they are in combat or repairing damaged ships, large portions of their crew and facilities would be extraneous to the job at hand.

3. Their task of being the empire's presence in a certain area would be moot as soon as they leave.

4. They still would not have access to material or facilities that repairs might require.

Starbases, fleet repair docks, and to a lesser extent the battle stations, base station, and even mobile bases are designed to be HQ units permanently stationed in a star system or on the frontier. Exploration, patrol, police, and combat ships have their unique duties that bases cannot do.

Making a really big ship won't guarantee that the job of a starship will get done nor is it a good idea as a repair facility.

Just my 2 cents worth to the discussion.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savedfromwhat wrote:
They Come as mini's... I am Getting one.


Never mind a mini. I want a full-size one Very Happy
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Starsuperion
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
The problems I see with the massive mobile fighting bases are:

1. Their mass/size would prohibit combat maneuvers.

2. Whether they are in combat or repairing damaged ships, large portions of their crew and facilities would be extraneous to the job at hand.

3. Their task of being the empire's presence in a certain area would be moot as soon as they leave.

4. They still would not have access to material or facilities that repairs might require.

Starbases, fleet repair docks, and to a lesser extent the battle stations, base station, and even mobile bases are designed to be HQ units permanently stationed in a star system or on the frontier. Exploration, patrol, police, and combat ships have their unique duties that bases cannot do.

Making a really big ship won't guarantee that the job of a starship will get done nor is it a good idea as a repair facility.

Just my 2 cents worth to the discussion.


2 cents noted and assimilated..

you may be right..

but I still am going to try to work out all the variables and see how much viability i can get out of the idea..at the very least..

trying is always fun..giving up is never an option..

that is what makes us develop and create when the odds are against us.. Very Happy

you present a great set of hurdles for me to work around, and I thank you for that.

this list will help me
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Starsuperion
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So back on target, as far as the topic goes, what exactly do the andromedan Decimator ships look like anyway?

are there any other ships then what we have already seen (design wise) in the mini gallery??

what are the races in the magellenic cloud?

I've seen some images somewhere of some kind of battle with an andro ship, what are the races called that are in that image??

Are there ships already designed for the Omega Octant??

BTW, has anyone ever made rules for the "Galaxy Quest" ship the "Protector"?

I know it sounds silly but there is a mini of that ship, and to have it in starfleet as some kind of alternate light cruiser, or medium cruiser would be kinda fun.. Very Happy

so are there any unofficial rules floating around out there??

Or could I just take some stats from an existing Federation ship and make my own cards for it??

if so what ship fits that description??

if you are wondering what the Design is for the "galaxy Quest" Ship, I have provided a link..
http://www.sharecg.com/images/medium/14023.jpg

http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/heavycruiser_protector.jpg

http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/chronology.html

Miniature:
http://spaceship.brainiac.com/MiniModelMadness/GalaxyQuest.jpg
however if I was to use this ship in game, Unofficially, then I would consider it a Starfleet "Quest" class cruiser..
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would think from the perspective of saving costs and such that having 3 massive ships with heavy armaments, and docking facilities would be more cost effective then building a stationary starbase..and with the resources and money saved by overhauling existing ships to the new X tech, they would save money and costs in building cruisers.. allowing the development of 3 massive ships for support roles..


I doubt it. As kang noted this was a point that a general war had led straight into the ISC war that had led straight into the Andromedan war. Everyone was war weary, economically knackered and most importantly in need of ships NOW. The ship you are proposing is a pretty radical new vessel - significantly larger than a BB and expected to fulfill a multi function role (war ship, carrier, repair dock etc). That is going to require R&D and new production facilities. The time just to R&D it and prepare the economy to build such a thing would put it beyond any useful time scale, never mind actually build the thing. Neither are they 'saving' money by upgrading cruisers to X tech. They are trying to get the most efficient combat worthy ships with what limited resources they have, it is isn't a case of upgrade existing vessels and we will have X billions of intergalactic credits (or whatever) to spend else where, it is case of do we spend our credits/resources on upgrading OR building new or a bit of both.

Whilst you could look at F&E for some idea of abstract economics in the SFU, if we look at our contemprory navies of the last century you can get an idea of what it's like to produce a radical new ship, and the cost of size vs quantity.

First big ships VS small ships.

At the start of 20th century, leading up to WW1, in straight money terms you could have (approximately, depends on exactly which class you compare with what)
1 battleship or
2 cruisers or
7 light cruisers or
20 destroyers.

Its been a long time since I looked at F&E, and I can't quite remember the ship costs, but I vaguely remember them being more cruisers per BB but less DDs per BB, something more like
1 BB or
3 CA or
4/5 CL or
7 DD



In terms of a brand new and significantly different ship, you have 2 issues, the first is cost of building the first few units. They tend to be quite a bit more expensive than what is expected to be the unit cost as various production issues and redesign issues come up during the construction of the new ships. The other issue is the R&D for these vessels. You need to work out how such a vessel can fit together with out compromising integrity/efficiency (e.g. conflict bewteen weapons requirements and repair facility requirements), deal with issues that you have never dealt with before (can we get a warp field big enough to cover a vessel that big or some other techno babble). Part of this is also the cost if setting up construction facilities for such a new vessel - a ship yard big enough obvioulsy, but also facilities to handle components that may well have unique requirements to other ships.

The current USN DDX-1000 program would have been a good example of a radical new vessel, however, that is awkward as it is still an ongoing saga, with a lot of spin/politics involved in what is said about costs). Broadly speaking from what I could find it appears that has an intial cost of the first few units of about +15% of the expected long term unit cost, and the R&D cost ranges form about +33% to over +200% of the the cost of 3 units. Like I said there is a lot of politics in that program.

Looking at something less radical and controversial the new CVNs are supposedly expected to be about +50% of the first vessel cost in R&D. That is just for essentially a modernised version of the existing CVNs.

For the sake of argument on your Fortress design applying a +50% in R&D over the cost of all 3 units doesn't seem unreasonable.

If your fortress was run as a long term building project then how many BBs would you expect each one to cost?, looking at the size and taking into account the complexity of multi-role vessel I would have guessed that each fortress could have been say 3 BBs or more.

Multiply by 3 units = 9. Apply a 15% initial run increase = 10.4, then 50% for R&D = 15.5 BBs.

That doesn't account for time factors. If you are already producing BBs (or cruisers etc) then you can get producing them now, starting on a radical new ship could mean several years before you even start production.

All conjecture of course, but much fun can be had conjecturing Smile
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djdood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starsuperion wrote:

a whole lotta questions...


Please parse your questions out a bit more one at a time. You're more likely to get answers if you don't "shotgun" ten at once like that. I know I ignored that post as there was no way to quickly reply to it, and then forgot about it after a day or so.

Starsuperion wrote:

Are there ships already designed for the Omega Octant??


Yes. They all exist already. If you browse through ADB's online store, you'll see dozens of modules for Star Fleet Battles. There's 30 years of history for the SFU in there (literally thousands of ship SSD's).

New specific ships are always able to be done, but they'd have to fit with what had gone before ("Hey, the Flibitroians in the Theta modules don't have a War Cruiser. What if I took the aft hull of their Destroyer and gave it a longer pair of weapon booms...")

Wholesale new empires/races would sit on file with ADB until they decide they have a spot for them.

The Jindarians and Vudar spent the better part of a decade (maybe even more) "on file".

Eventually the Jindos came out as a "region-less" band of space gypsies (who didn't need a spot on the Strategic F&E map) and the Vudar got shoehorned into a corner of Klingon space (and were Klingon subjects... until they decided they weren't anymore).

Starsuperion wrote:

... the "Galaxy Quest" ship the "Protector"?
...so are there any unofficial rules floating around out there??


If there are, no one is allowed to mention them here. That would violate ADB's web-policy (not to mention the copyright on Galaxy Quest).

Starsuperion wrote:

Or could I just take some stats from an existing Federation ship and make my own cards for it??


You can always do stuff like that for your own use, you just can't (legally) post it anywhere and you can't link to it here if you do.

Starsuperion wrote:

if so what ship fits that description??


Who knows. It's from a different setting, so anything goes.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to expand on Will's answer a smidgeon.
Many of us (myself included) check this board during short breaks at work, or between events/happenings at home. As such, it is quite difficult to respond to a long series of un-related or only marginally related questions; and if several of us respond to only a few of the questions - then the unanswered ones get pushed off of the current page and may not be answered.
You'd be much better off to post them in several threads, one for each topic:
One for the "Protector", one for Omega, one for Magellenic, one for Andros, etc.

Starsuperion wrote:
So back on target, as far as the topic goes, what exactly do the andromedan Decimator ships look like anyway?

I don't recall ever seeing any artwork for it, but I'd hazard a guess that it looks the same as all of the other Andromedan Ships...
Round in general shape...
Two Warp Engines dlung off the back side...
Multiple PA panel emitters around the periphery...
Only the size would change.

Quote:
are there any other ships then what we have already seen (design wise) in the mini gallery??

This is a loaded question and can be taken two ways:
1) Are there any other Andromedan ships... Yes. There are many Adromedan ships; albeit most of them are variants of the main class ships and could easily be represented with the existing minatures line. There are exceptions however. Mike Raper has sculpted a new mini ofthe Andro Terminator that will be case in the next go 'round of minis. There are also no minis for the Desecrator or the MWPs.

2) Are there ANY! other ships. In this case, the answer is unequivecably a YES! The Star Fleet Battles game has well over 2,500 different ships in it and there are no where near this many different miniatures.

Quote:
what are the races in the magellenic cloud?

From the ADB webpage on the Magellenic Cloud: "On their way to invade the Milky Way, the Andromedan invaders established a base in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud. This island galaxy, near the Milky Way, was inhabited by spacefaring empires: the Baduvai Imperium, the Eneen Protectorates, the Maghadim Hives, the Yrol Septs, the Uthiki Harmony, the Chomak Community, and some Neutral Worlds"

Quote:
I've seen some images somewhere of some kind of battle with an andro ship, what are the races called that are in that image??

You'll have to be more specific. The Andromedans have been depicted numerous times, by numerous artist facing off against numerous foes.

Quote:
Are there ships already designed for the Omega Octant??

Yes. See the ADB webpage regarding the Omega Sector Over 20 new empires, over 50 new weapons, over 400 new ships!

Quote:
BTW, has anyone ever made rules for the "Galaxy Quest" ship the "Protector"?

A very open-ended question.
I'm sure someone has; however, neither they nor we can post/discuss it here w/o violating ADB's web policy

Quote:
I know it sounds silly but there is a mini of that ship [The Protector], and to have it in starfleet as some kind of alternate light cruiser, or medium cruiser would be kinda fun.. Very Happy

so are there any unofficial rules floating around out there??

Or could I just take some stats from an existing Federation ship and make my own cards for it??

if so what ship fits that description??

For you own use, you can do just about anything. You just couldn't post it here, talk about it here, or distribute it.
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Starsuperion
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

very good answers, thanks guys..

I am still new to this forum so please excuse my extensive line of questions..

I apologize if any of you were annoyed..

that was not my intent..

as to the "Galaxy Quest" question, I just reread the rules of the forum and license.. and I completely understand now..

no worries..

i have formulated some new ideas on the Fortress class, but I am doing some research to better enhance my premise, and so I will update this thread later on that..

as for the reason I placed so many unrelated subject sinto one thread..

well that is from experience on other sites.. many Mods would excoriate users who kept creating new threads rather then combine thoughts and questions into one..

is this not the practice here??

again I am learning more about who you are on this forum and how you communicate with each other, which helps me to "talk" to you better with less confusion..

so for my sake, please bare with me..
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djdood
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just pace yourself pal. Post a question or two, get an answer, go on from that for more.

Like Tony said, a lot of us check periodically during the day, but only have 5 minutes or so at a time. 10 questions at once means you'll get 1 or 2 answered and the rest will just not get noticed and fade away...

Several of us really enjoy sharing our experience with the SFU, but it has to get metered out in manageable bite-sized chunks.

You could always keep a list of things you want to know. I'd bet a lot will end up getting answered just from other discussions and reading of the stuff ADB already has posted.
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