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Shield burn through clarification please
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Hod K'el
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang...I like it! Good explanation with viability! I will consider this as sacred text...sort of...well, just good s#!t to read!

And thanks!
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Hod K'el, some ships have armour because that was what was used before the invention of shields. Ships like the Federation old light cruiser and the Romulan War Eagle/King Eagle are in fact refitted versions of much older ships, which retain the armour because it's not worth removing it. Some other units have armour to reflect general toughness, like the battle station and Planet Killer. PK is made of neutronium, and very tough.
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
"Penetrating" means that it causes internal damage.

So, ten points done to a ten point shield means that burn-through is done, resulting in nine boxes to the shield (leaving one box) and one point of burn-through internal damage.

Waking this thread up because of an argument at our last play session.

A ship with armor was struck with damage such that, using batteries, the player was able to cause the shield to drop with one internal.

Example: Ship has 22 shields, 5 armor, 3 batteries and ample remaining energy. It is struck for 24 points of damage. Player uses 1 battery to reduce the damage to 23.

In this case his argument was that he did NOT take burn through because burn through only occurs when the shield is not penetrated. (It was, in fact, penetrated.) He further argued that the 1 remaining point would be taken on armor because while burnthrough bypasses armor, that 1 point of damage was a internal, not burn.

Relevant rules sections:
"(3C8) Shield Burnthrough.
If any volley consists of at least ten points but does not penetrate a shield, ... Note that Burn Through damage bypasses ar- mor (3D1)."

(3D1) ARMOR
.... Any damage that penetrates the shields is scored first on this armor regardless of the direction from which the damage came. All of the armor must be disabled before any damage can be allocated to the ship itself. This does not include the effects of
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:53 am    Post subject: continued Reply with quote

<previous post was truncated>
...This does not include the effects of Any damage that penetrates the shields is scored first on this armor regardless of the direction from which the damage came. All of the armor must be disabled before any damage can be allocated to the ship itself. This does not include the effects of burn through (3C8) which bypass armor.

Now I personally think this is a silly interpretation but the logic is consistent with the rules:

The shield was penetrated. Therefore no burn through.
The 1 extra point of damage should be scored on armor because it is not a "burn through" and therefore does not bypass the armor.

Obviously, however, what this causes is a situation where if the damage is around the amount that it can take down the shield but (with or without a little reinforcement) cannot penetrate the armor then the ship takes no meaningful hits.

Is this the intent?
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kinshi
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hod K'el wrote:
Why does burnthrough bypass armor? This just does not make any sense to me, so is there a logical explanation?

My thinking is: I have a shield; I get shot; the shot makes it through the shield; the next thing that gets hit is the armor I put on my ship; if the shot gets through my armor, what damn good is the armor? Good people are getting killed here!


shock damage...

when a vessel gets hit that hard, the entire superstructure is rattled, and stuff breaks loose from its mounts.

Want a prime example, watch Das Boot...and see how the sub gets knocked around by the force of the depth charges, and the damage that occurs despite not being a hit.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duxvolantis,

Your opponent was correct in his use of the rules.

Since he allowed the shield to fully go down, the single damage point was not burn-through, and the armor would indeed be hit. For the single point of damage to be burn-through, there needed to have been a single shield box left.

Fundamentally, this is a border case. Since there is a distinction between burn-through and normal internal damage, you will have a border case. It is what it is.

Plus, there are trade offs. For example, if your opponent had expended an extra point of power, then two things would have changed: 1) The point of damage would have made it through anyway, and it would be burn-through; 2) There would be a shield box left. While it is the case that the point of internal damage would now skip the armor, it is also the case that the single remaining shield box could still be reinforced. So, having lots of space power that turn could help avoid future internals. It also would prevent any transporter actions. Since he did not do that, the shield is down, you can transport through it (on that impulse, no less), and, if you can line the shield up again, you can fire through the empty shield and he cannot use reinforcement.
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. Thanks for the response.

I had always envisioned the burn-through as damage that happened because the bridge of the enterprise would shake (surely something would get damaged) and then spock would announced deflector shields at 54% Smile

It is a corner case but it does give a ship with lots of batteries and armor a way to avoid a weapon or power hit if it is important.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but there are only like two with lots of batteries (WE, KE) and two with (relatively speaking) lots of power (F-CL, KE). So, it isn't like it is all that common. (Well, and larger bases. But then, they need all the help they can get.)

Besides, as I tried to point out, there is a downside to doing it that way. The downside is that the shield is now down, when they could have preserved at least one shield box. Without that last shield box, they are vulnerable to transports (i.e. marine raids) and the shield cannot be reinforced against other volleys. So, there is a trade-off being made.
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kirbykibble
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

penetrating means the there is internal damage done, and the facing shield is down.
if you do exact damage as the shield, you do the burn through.
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rjl518
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a fed CA scores 30 points of damage on a kli d7 thru a shield with only 24 points available...is burn through added to internal damage?
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rjl518 wrote:
a fed CA scores 30 points of damage on a kli d7 thru a shield with only 24 points available...is burn through added to internal damage?


No.
Mark the remaining 24 shield boxes as damaged. Then apply the remaining 6 points as internal damage.
Burn Through only comes into play when the shield would otherwise be able to stop all damage and prevent any internals.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad is correct. Basically, burn-through can only occur if the attack does at least 10 points of damage, and no damage makes it through the shield. If the attack does normal internal damage, it, by definition, cannot do any burn-through damage.

So, some examples. All examples assume the Fed CA does some number of direct-fire damage in a single volley against the #2 shield of a Romulan WE that is undamaged, and the Romulan is not able to use battery power for whatever reason.
- Fed CA does 30 points of damage: The Romulan's #2 shield stops 25 points of damage and is down. The Romulan ship takes 5 points of internal damage. All damage is resolved against its armor.
- Fed CA does 26 points of damage: The Romulan's #2 shield stops 25 points of damage and is down. The Romulan ship takes 1 point of internal damage, which is resolved against the armor.
- Fed CA does 25 points of damage: The Romulan's #2 shield stops all of the damage. However, as the volley has at least 10 points, and the volley did not penetrate the shield, only 24 points of the damage are applied to the shield, leaving one box remaining in the #2 shield. The Romulan ship takes 1 point of burn-through damage, which skips the armor.
- Fed CA does 15 points of damage: As above, since the damage doesn't penetrate the shield, all but one point is applied to the shield, and the remaining point is applied as burn-through damage, which skips the armor. There are 11 boxes left in the Romulan's #2 shield.
- Fed CA does 9 points of damage: Since the volley consists of less than 10 points of damage, the 9 points are simply removed from the Romulan's #2 shield, leaving 16 boxes remaining. There is no burn-through.

Hopefully that helps. I used a Romulan WE instead of a Klingon D7 so that I could include armor in the examples.

(Also note that a Klingon D7 doesn't have a 24 point shield. Its #1 shield is 30 points, and the rest are 22 points. So, either the D7 used two batteries to get to 24 points, or it should have been 22 points. Totally irrelevant to the question, I know, but I still wanted to point that out. Regardless of how pedantic I am being.)
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djdood
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We like our Federation Commander Answer Guy pedantic.
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rjl518
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you guys, fair winds and following seas.
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rjl518
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to clarify.
so its only ONE burn-through point if the volley that hits the shield is 10 more points.
If a volley is like 20 or more points, it is STILL ONE point of burn through damage on that shield?
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