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Pregame arming (Patrick Doyle's CL 41 article)

 
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ericphillips
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:31 am    Post subject: Pregame arming (Patrick Doyle's CL 41 article) Reply with quote

I am confused.

In "Command at Origins 2009" article, Captain's Log 41, page 33, Patrick Doyle states that he did not use pre-game arming on the first turn because he knew he would not fire on turn #1. "This had the additional benefit of saving the four points of battery power that are lost when starting a battle with 'loaded torpedoes,'" he writes.

What am I missing here? Isn't he losing four points this way? With pre-game arming, he gets to pre-load the four PHOTs in exchange for four batteries. So, by forgoing pre-game arming, then pre-loading on turn #1, isn't he actually losing four energy points?

Am I missing something here, because his tactic seems more detrimental than helpful to me.

Thanks.

--Eric
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

haven't read the article, but ..

No he saves 4 points of power on turn1 (only)

If he preloaded then he would have no batteries and spend 8 to finish loading. By not preloading he keeps 4 batteries and still only spend 8 on preloading. For turn 1 he has 4 power more than normal, on turn 2 he will be down 4 as he pays 8 to finish loading instead of 4 to hold. Overall he is neutral across 2 turns, but gained the flexibility to choose to spend them doing something else on turn 1 if it became more important.
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ericphillips
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get it. That took a while to get my brain wrapped around. But I get it now. Thanks StoryElf.
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marcus_aurelius
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually employ the tactic of preloading when playing Federation, and I do GAIN 4 POWER because of it and I do not have a power deficit on turn #2. I agree that not preloading is deterimental.

I preload all tubes before the game. Which only costs me 4 battery power (for a heavy cruiser type) instead of 8 normal turn power. So I acutally GAIN 4 POWER here.

On turn #1, I put 6 power into each torpedo (2 to finish loading and 4 for full overload) and I move at base speed zero or 8 and accelerate with any excess power but I hold back enough power to fully recharge batteries at the end of the turn.

On turn #2, I pay 2 per tube to hold overloads, pick base speed 24 and accelerate as much as I can to charge the enemy at as close to speed 32 as possible.

This allows me to engage on turn #2 with charged batteries and NO POWER DEFICIT. It also allows me to fire torpedos on turn #1 if needed but there are few situations where an enemy would want to willingly charge Feds with full overloads (I am sure there are some cases).

The Fed Strike Cruiser is the best ship for this tactic because it can move speed 32, holding full overloads and fire some phaser-1s (I think 2) without dipping into batteries.

This is a key difference between FC and SFB when playing Feds. In SFB (if I remember correctly) you cannot put all overload energy into the torpedo in one turn, in FC you can). I could not use the aforementioned tactic effectively in SFB, especially because I would also need to pay for 6 ECCM, 2 for shields, 1 for life support and 1 for fire control scanners.

P.S. If I have misinterpreted the FC photon rules please let me know.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether or not the pre-loading or not is useful is going to depend on other factors (mainly do you need to be able to fire on turn 1). But to be clear you are losing out on power even with what you are saying.

If you want the ability to unload on turn 1 then there is no choice, you have to preload for lost battery power.

However, unless I am mis-remembering the photon overload rules (certainly possible) you are actually even worse off than the original situation for a turn 2 or later firing. The original position I posted about was energy neutral by turn 2, you are actually down 4 (maybe this was the same scenario as the article?).

Your scenario has you (assuming a 4 battery ship):

1. Lose 4 batteries .
2. Pay 8 power to finish loading
3. Pay 16 power to overload
4. pay 8 power to hold (turn 2)

total power cost to you = 36 power to get fully overloaded photons ready for turn 2

If you did as the above article suggests:

1. pay 8 power to preload
2. pay 16 power to overload (which can still be done turn 1)
3. pay 8 power to finish loading (turn 2)

total power = 32 power, and you are still only paying 8 on turn 2. So you could have spent 4 extra power on other things during turn 1 and still be in the same position on turn 2. Whether or not that is worth it is a seperate issue to the basic maths.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Photon pre-arming is like a super market 3 for 2 offer. You think you are saving, but often you are paying for something you didn't need. If you only needed 1 then paying extra for 2 more is wasted money, even if you are getting the extra 2 items cheap. Same with pre-arming, it seems cheap, but unless you need what it actually gives you (the ability to shoot on turn 1) then you are simply paying energy for no reason.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is truie, but typically you have extra energy on the first turn anyway, Especially because the Fed doesn't HAVE to go fast on turn 1, usually anyway.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats true, but is seperate to the issue of did you save or spend more power than needed.

Marcus did not 'save' 4 power by pre-arming. He expended 4 power more than he had to, unless he definatley wanted the option to shoot first turn. His turn 2 overloads was going to expend 8 power at the start of each turn whether he pre-armed or not.

If you are going to waste power it is generally better to waste it at the end of the turn rather than the beginning, at least then you have the power to spend on unforseen things if they crop up. That 4 power may allow you to acclerate and fire a couple of extra phasers at the back end of the turn, or go evasive to avoid a long range sniping, battery extra damage away, or pay for decel etc.
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DirkSJ
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Your scenario has you (assuming a 4 battery ship):

1. Lose 4 batteries .
2. Pay 8 power to finish loading
3. Pay 16 power to overload
4. pay 8 power to hold (turn 2)

total power cost to you = 36 power to get fully overloaded photons ready for turn 2

If you did as the above article suggests:

1. pay 8 power to preload
2. pay 16 power to overload (which can still be done turn 1)
3. pay 8 power to finish loading (turn 2)

total power = 32 power, and you are still only paying 8 on turn 2. So you could have spent 4 extra power on other things during turn 1 and still be in the same position on turn 2. Whether or not that is worth it is a seperate issue to the basic maths.

Third scenario:

1. Lose 4 batteries .
2. Pay 8 power to finish loading
3. pay 4 power to hold (turn 2)
4. Pay 16 power to overload

Total power = 32 and on turn 2 you are going slow. Probably inferior to scenario 2 in general but doesn't waste power like scenario 1.

Fourth scenario:

1. Lose 4 batteries .
2. Pay 8 power to finish loading
3. Pay 16 power to overload
4. Fire turn 1

Total power = 28. This is pretty much the only time you want to preload. Well...there is also the "don't overload them" case but who fires non-overloaded photons on turn 1 or 2? Razz
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirkSJ wrote:
Well...there is also the "don't overload them" case but who fires non-overloaded photons on turn 1 or 2? Razz


me
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirkSJ wrote:
Well...there is also the "don't overload them" case but who fires non-overloaded photons on turn 1 or 2? Razz


Me. In the course of 30 years of SFB and 6 years of Fed Comm - I've firing waaaay more standard load photons than I ever have (or most likely ever will) overloaded photons.

Not to say that I won't fire an overload if the situation allows, but intentionally arming them as overloads sevrely limits their usefulness. Especially when playing against the group I do who will do everything in their power to prevent overload range shots when you've got nothign but OL'ed torps.
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Last edited by Scoutdad on Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:39 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, regular photons make a nice present for a ship running away (range 9+) and happens to turn an open/weakened shield toward you --
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OGOPTIMUS
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirkSJ wrote:
Well...there is also the "don't overload them" case but who fires non-overloaded photons on turn 1 or 2? Razz


With the ability to overload photons at the instant of firing, I almost never overload them before that. It's just more tactically useful. I'd rather fire some extra phasers with the photons, defend myself from drones, or get into position to have a near perfect shot than sink all the power into the photons and have someone spend the whole game running away from me.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Photons are criticized for bad accuracy, but the fact the have equal damage is makes up for it. But don't fire all photons that way, or he'll turn and pelt you while you reload
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