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Prime Directive Federation
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of people in WW2, Vietnam, and Korea followed captains (O-3s) with only two years of service and no more combat than they had.
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lincolnlog
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_Tricorder wrote:
Carthaginian wrote:
lincolnlog wrote:
Many state National Guards are still commissioning High School grads with college defferment, then the newly commissioned officers have so many years to achieve a degree.


Though following this path, the officer in question 1.) cannot be promoted beyond O-2 [no exceptions] until degree completion and 2.) will immediately revert to enlisted if they fail to obtain a degree in 4 years [barring deployments].

The fastest climbers I met in the Guard were the private 'military academy' grads- they are commissioned under the same basic rules, but already had the equivalent of an associate's degree. One year of overloaded semesters would allow them to complete their degree obligation and continue to be promoted... and a few made O-3 (via waver) by their 4th year.


As an enlisted man in the Army National Guard myself, I would be very nervous about having to follow an O-3 with only 3 or 4 years of service.


I spent quite a number of years in the Regular Army and in the California Army National Guard. Most states have their own military academies (OCS) that drill 11 months and 2 Annual Trainings. These academies bring in education advisors that sell credit hours. Most OCS attendees complete OCS with an Associates even if they didn't have a single college credit before beginning.

As to time to make Captain O-3, usually in the National Guard it takes 10 or more years. Promotion is slow, because of the TDA/MTOE issue stated earlier. Even in the enlisted ranks, it's not uncommon to have a good E-4 with 10 years, waiting for an E-5 slot to be vacated. And E-5's with 15 waiting for an E-6 slot to be vacated. With the increased deployments, that may have changed, I'm talking 20 years ago.

In high intensity combat, promotion is faster due to casualties. Combat is the best education a leader can obtain, although somewhat more expensive than at the university. I would happily have followed Audie Murphy through the Colmar Pocket with his 2 years time in service. Combat combines Darwin with luck, and generally the most competent come out on top, and if lucky alive.

In the active component, officers move up quicker. There are generally slots to be filled. And the Military controls promotions to prevent more officers, or for that matter more NCO's being created at various grades than there are slots available.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, it doesn't really apply, but you can consider the State Guards. California and Texas and 30 other states have them. State Guards are the unloved bastard step children of the National Guard, and get no respect and no money. You don't get paid, and you have to pay for your own equipment and your own uniforms.

BUT, you can get a commission in the State Guard assuming you already have two years of college after two years of service, or one year in the state guard with at least one year in the real military prior to that. In some cases, you can get waivered to one year of enlisted service. I went into TXSG as an E5 with a promise of being commissioned 1LT in 12 months, bu they changed the rules during that 12 months (they started enforcing the weight limits and I am pretty fat). So I worked my way up to E6 and E7. After I was awarded the Medal of Merit (equal to a federal Meritorious Service Medal) with V for valor (I saved a few lives while risking my own) I was told that the V device meant I could pick any one rule for getting a commission and get a waiver. Since I met every other requirement except weight, they put the paperwork in for that, but we got a phone call from HQ saying that they were not going to give a commission to someone as fat as I was (for fear my photo would be in the newspaper) and that I could "get a lawyer and sue the state guard" if I wanted my commission. (I did consider it, but if you have to get a judge to order your military branch to give you something, do you really want to stick around when state HQ is going to take vengeance on your entire brigade? HQ flatly said if I "got a lawyer and sued" that they'd be damn sure that no promotion for anyone in the brigade would get approved in less than a year's delay.) So, I stayed an E7 but was assigned to O3 jobs and given a half a dozen pieces of paperwork that said I outranked all of the lieutenants, could sign officer paperwork, and was "acting" commander of a company. [It's the state guard and things are ... informal.] Eventually, State HQ got pissed and ordered me removed from company command. So I was promoted to brigade S3N and they left the brigade S3 slot open, so I was actually in a job for a lieutenant colonel. Go figure.
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Carthaginian
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_Tricorder wrote:
As an enlisted man in the Army National Guard myself, I would be very nervous about having to follow an O-3 with only 3 or 4 years of service.


I went to Iraq with a 2nd LT who hadn't finished degree requirement, and had one who was an officer for 4 years (O1 & O2) before receiving his Captain's bars- though he was prior service enlisted. Of course, this engendered no confidence in me, as he started Marion Military Academy because he failed to get E-4 as fast as he wanted to... Sad

lincolnlog,

The war has changed this DRASTICALLY. It's not uncommon for Guardsmen on the enlisted side to make E5 just as fast as their Active Duty counterparts these days. PFC's I trained before I got out 3 years ago are now wearing hard stripes and some are already on the promotion lists for E5. Officers can look forward to getting a detachment within 3-4 years, and a Company in 5-6 years.

People are just getting out after they come home from their tours- just like the Regular Army. That, plus the annoyance of far higher call-up rates and the hassle of trying to be a citizen soldier in a country that has begun to think of the Guard as 'Army Light' has left many slots open for mid-level NCO's and Company grade officers.

Myself, I was an E3 outta basic (associate's degree), and waited 2 years for my E-4 (total, as I spent 6 months drilling before Basic), which I got while in Iraq in '03*. I then waited 3 years more for E-5 (my fault, as I never did well on PT tests) while several of my friends got their E5 in 2 years. I was up for E6 by the time that I was medicaled out after 9 and 1/2 years. This was completely average for my 'graduating class'- most all the soldiers who cam in around my time period (Basic in '01) are experiencing similar promotion rates.
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lincolnlog
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carthaginian,

I subscribe to Army Times, so I knew the RA was promoting faster, I had no idea it had affected the Guard to the level your describing. That is both good and bad in my opinion. That is a completely different discussion.

Steve,

I'm a senior NCO in a SDF (OHMR). I know when I was in the CA-ARNG the CASMR were pretty low staffing and poorly trained. The CASMR and many of the SG's have come a long way, and are organizations you can serve proudly. For us guys that can no longer serve on active duty and wish to continue our service, its a good alternative.

It's a funny thing about the military, when your in the Regular Army you make fun of the NG, when your in the NG you make fun of the SG, when your in the SG you make fun of CAP. It is such a caste social order. But regardless of pay or benefits they are all working toward one goal. Service to the Community, State and Nation.

Back to gaming: Audie Murphy as mentioned before, would fall into that legendary character catagory like Kirk. You have a person who distinguished himself in battle, proven through action that he could assume greater responsibility, and had the leadership skill to motivate subordinates. He was promoted in accordance with the needs of the service, commenserate with his ability. Two examples from literature are Richard Sharpe and Horatio Hornblower, characters from the same period of history. Both legendary, but in two different military systems. In the Napoleonic British Army, the most common way to receive a commission was to purchase it from the Horse Guards. Wellington's dispatches from the Spanish Pennisula were vocal on how this practice provided him a steady supply of officers that were useless, and was always trying to get the policy changed. Hornblower's father used influence to get him appointed as a midshipman in Navy. Hornblower ends up and Admiral, and Sharpe a Colonel. Of course there was lots of intrigue and politics in both story lines. Roddenberry Based Kirk's character on Hornblower.

The Civil War was discussed in an earlier post. Most Civil War officers in the Volunteer Regiments were elected or appointed by the Governor of the State. Can you imagine going into you NG drill, and having an election to determine who the Company Commander and Platoon Leaders are going to be?

Bob
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't Lincoln made Captain in the Illiinois Militia due to beating a guy in an Indian Wrestling contest --
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Carthaginian
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lincolnlog wrote:
Carthaginian,

I subscribe to Army Times, so I knew the RA was promoting faster, I had no idea it had affected the Guard to the level your describing. That is both good and bad in my opinion. That is a completely different discussion.

...The Civil War was discussed in an earlier post. Most Civil War officers in the Volunteer Regiments were elected or appointed by the Governor of the State. Can you imagine going into you NG drill, and having an election to determine who the Company Commander and Platoon Leaders are going to be?

Bob


LOL... we are 'One Army' now, man! Army Times and even the brass for both Big Army and the Guard are all over that little mantra. Rolling Eyes Most Guardsmen have at least one, and many have multiple, combat tours behind them these days... so rapid promotion isn't quite so big an issue. If things were like the Old Guard (go to the field with a Duce full of bullets and a Duce full of beer) I would be a lot more worried. As-is, I know I escorted convoys all over Iraq for 356 and had a perfect record... and no R.A. MP unit had accomplished that by April 04 when we got home.

And honestly... had we elected our CO, 1SG, and PL's- heck, I mighta felt a bit safer. Wink At least the ones we had during our tour had the decency to stay behind the wire and behind a desk, and left the soldering to people who knew what they were doing. Very Happy


During the General War (and even during the quieter periods of the SFU) I could easily see some feats like TOS describes Jim Kirk doing- essentially grabbing waver after waver and maxing points for every board- but that new movie was just a travesty. Evil or Very Mad
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was in the Army, we made fun of the NG and nobody had ever heard of the state guard.

My dad was in the Army Reserve and made fun of the national guard.

When I was in the state guard, we made fun of the national guard. They called us wannabees and we called them mercenaries. They had to grudgingly admit (after Jessica Lynch when we got full combat training) that it took a lot of be in the state guard and do everything they did and not get paid for it. By that time, we were drilling as many hours a month as they were, and just as hard. We even did a few combined exercises with them. (The local company could only raise two platoons, and my entire TXSG company was the size of one of their platoons, so we filled in for them when they had their ARTEP and actually become the first combat qualified company in the state guard!)
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aramis
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The irony is that the Army of the Republic of Texas is probably the best known of the State Guards... More Alaskans know about the AotRoT than about the ASDF (Alaska State Defense Force). (If one goes to the commander's page, the general is a little on the plump side...)

Most Americans really are unaware of the 5 layer system:
Active Services (Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, Air Force, NOAA, PHS,
National Guard
(National) Reserves
State Militias/Guards
Auxiliaries - Including USMS, CAP & USCGA

Only the top 3 are covered by the Title 10 system of qualifications.
The bottom 2 layers vary widely. Senior Member (Adult level) CAP promotes to Captain pretty quick, lacks an enlisted corps entirely, and enlisted roles are done by unranked SM's and LT's.
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lincolnlog
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3 Years to Captain in CAP if you complete all the required training and keep your membership active. 6 Years to Major, and 10 years to Lieutenant Colonel. One can make Captain as quickly as 1 year, and Major as Quickly as 1.5 years. I know a few 10 year LT's in CAP because of uncompleted training. Also, If you have a gap in service, your time in grade starts all over again.

1 Year as a Squadron Commander makes you a Captain, and if you are level 3 complete and a Group Commander you will be a Major.

Former Military officers also come in at their former rank up to Lieutenant Colonel. There are also other appointments to advanced grade and accelerated promotions based on life skills and such.

By the way you are allowed to wear NCO rank in CAP, but you must have been that rank in the military. And there is no NCO promotion system, so you remain the same rank forever basically. I wore stripes initially, then when I took over a Squadron took bars (went over to the dark side).

CAP has talked about an enlisted grade structure and changing the promotion system. But I don't think they ever will. What they have seems to rub peoples egos the right way. I like the way USCGA handles rank better, your rank equals your position. I have never been in the Aux, but know quite a few who are or have been. To me, it simply makes more sense.

In CAP you can be a 1stLt Sqdn Commander with LtCol's working for you. Rank is more of an acknowledgment of training and service, then an actual hierarchy.
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