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Tourney hydrans
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Story,

You got it right. Terry was confusing the Mongol (Medium Cruiser with six fighters) with the Mohawk (Heavy Cruiser with eight fighters).
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
As an aside on that Federation force, you probably only get to use 14 Ph-1s, not 20. The only way to get all 20 is to center-line the Hydran force. If you are planning on running away to reload, I seriously doubt you want to center-line the Hydrans ...

Still some good thoughts, though.


The Hydran force has to be spread over 7 hexes for them all to fire. It should be possible to centerline them. When you fire, the natural randomness of the dice should leave 1 side weaker than the other. That's the side you turn toward when you run away. As long as you have a few points of power remaining and you're going at least 16, you should be able to outrun the stingers.

In any case if you want to be cautious and not centerline, 14 PH-1 should still be enough to cripple 4 stingers, although you probably wouldn't kill them outright.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mojo - As it happens the gorns and the Feds were the 2 forces I was mainly thinking about when I said earlier that there are a couple of forces who are tricky to approach.

Replying to the Gorns first

Quote:
Not sure unless I play it out, but how about a Gorn fleet of:

2 BC/CC/CS/CM
1 CL

This is 6 PL-S and 6 PL-F or 1 R, 4 S, and 6 F (assuming you can push off the real fight to turn 2).

The puzzle seems to involve trying not to face 18 stingers all at the same time.

If you launch 4 PL-S at 1 Mohawk timed to hit at range 10 or so, you force it to either break off, release stingers early, or suck up a tremendous amount of damage.

If it breaks off, then it's 3 good ships vs 1 Mohawk, 1 Gendarme, and 10 stingers which is a much better fight. If it launches stingers early, this allows you to pick a few off and turn away at 24 speed where they can't catch you. If the Mohawk sucks up the damage, you can probably kill it fairly easily which makes the rest of the battle easier.

If stingers get close (as long as it's not 18 of them), then each Pl-F can guarantee crippling 1 per turn if you get them at 4-5 hexes range. That's 6 cripples between your 3 ships. And since you probably are moving faster than the stingers, you should be able to control the range.



As with others you seem to be disregarding the actual scenario. Your plasma S are not ready until turn 2, so you cannot force an early stinger launch with them as they were intending to launch on turn 1. Starting 0202 you cannot really avoid (range wise) the stingers either if that is what the hydrans are determined to do. The gorns are also one of the few races that will definately not be moving before the hydran main ships with a turn mode of D.

Your start range is 39. The hydran ships are moving 32. Lets say you sit still; If they deploy stingers on impulse 6 they will get to range 11 on impulse 8. Outside fusion range, but still shooting gatlings for about 12 damage. The main ships could close to range 7, or keep back. In order to stop the stingers deploying at that range you would have only Plasma F and they would do no damage on impact. You could fire all your F's at the stingers as they launch, in which case presumably 6 stingers (or 12 if you 2 turn F the S's) will close to range 13 in order to only take 4 damage the following turn (or just gatling the plasma at range 1). The stingers coud deploy on impulse 7 and move to range 9, but won't actually be able to fire on impulse 8. In that case the plasma can't launch and hit on turn 1, but could kill stingers the following turn (unless they move away slightly). Whatever you do, you are truly cornered and still have to deal with the main ships, whilst you have used a good chunk of your firepower for minimal effect.

You could try and end run the Hydrans waiting for the S's, but as noted earlier that is not physically possible against a canny hydran, you still get hit by stingers at range 6-8.

Alternatively, you could move to the map center, 'attacking' the hydrans*, though your F's are still unlikely to put off the stinger deployment. Assume you don't actually want to close to point blank range you will have to deal with the bathtub characteristics of the Gorns, or to put it another way, after heading at the Hydrans to launch the F's you will most likely feel an urge to HET to pull away. You will have to look very closely at the available power after arming the S's, allowing for a likely HET in order to work out what else you can do, whilst still going fast enough to avoid a point blank wallop from the hydran ships, or range 10 or less hit from the stingers. Using phasers will restrict you even more in ability to avoid the incoming shots. In any case, exactly where are you going to turn and run to? you are still effectively cornered with less manouverable ships. If you take a range 10 hit as you are trying to run then you are probably looking at a crippled CL (or indeed destroyed if the main ships get very close).

*By my reckoning, this is probably the best move option irrespective of whom you are. Moving straight in direction 3 at speed 24 (save power by not accelerating) keeps your options open. You could break left or right or carry on. For most races you are probably wanting to go left or right, but by waiting you force the hydran into a situation where he may make a mistake and decide he has to turn or slip before you are committed either way. A turn mode better than the hydran is better still, as impulse 4 (or maybe 5) as he is approching your centerline you accelerate then get to see what he does rather than the other way round. It also keeps your FA in arc in to the range 9-15 category (probably), so any decent mid/long range weapons can fire before you break one way or the other. Bear in mind though that you are still at a positional disadvantage as you are still then heading to a corner with a fast enemy commanding the inner and smaller intercept circle. A decent hydran player should still stop you properly getting away, but you shouldn't be in a bad as a position as a simple run sticking to map edge leaves you in.

Another viable (as viable as they get in the situation) Gorn tactic at the game start is NOT arm S's, declare speed 24 and head directly at the map center. See if the hydran goofs up in a way you can take advantage of as he tries to guess your intent, other wise on impulse 4/5 break left or right depending on which looks best (ie the one the hydran has most problems closing on you). You may still see stingers come out if you are not going to be able to clearly out run him, or are just going to end up stuck in a corner at the start of the following turn, in which case declare evasive during their cannot fire impulse. Then next turn retain evasive and go speed 24 for however long it takes to get to a position where the stingers are out of range. Stingers against evasive ships are useless from range 4+ so you can cut past them quite close, but you'll regret range 2 even if you are evasive. The biggest issue is that speed 24 and evasive cripples your power, and the main hydran ships can catch you as they'll be doing 24+, and even with +2 you don't want to be hit at point blank range. The reason that you do not arm S straight out is that if you did then on turn 2 you are also having to find 6 power to complete S arnming (to G's). That leaves your ships at the absolute limit of their power, you will not be able to HET (even if you dropped evasive), and barely be able to accelerate for an odd impulse. This is your achilles heel, if the hydrans can successfully chase you then you will likely be caught out of arc on all but 1 or 2 plasmas, with little in the line of phasers or batteries. Starting S arnming on turn 1, leaves you needing 4 power on turn 2, which is enough for full acceleration on the BCs and 6 accels with the CL. That could be what allows you to outrange the stingers and avoid the main ships until turn 3, by then hopefully the stingers are out ranged and you can drop evasive to have a go at the main ships. A risky move, but...


Last edited by storeylf on Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another possibility would be a Fed fleet of:

2 NCL
2 DW

This is 14 photons and 20 PH-1 that can be brought to bear. Let's assume the engagement range is 6-8 against the Hydrans. The massed firepower of 18 stingers, 2 Mohawks, and 1 Gendarme would probably kill 1 NCL. There probably isn't enough firepower to make it worthwhile spreading fire against 2 ships.

The feds answer back by firing 14 photons at 14 separate stingers and 20 PH-1 at the remaining 4 stingers. The 14 photons on average kill or cripple (depending on whether the Fed has enough power to partially overload each photon) 7 stingers and the 20 PH1 kill or cripple 4 stingers. That leaves 7 good stingers left plus 2 Mohawks and 1 Gendarme vs 1 NCL and 2 DWs. This isn't a bad deal for the Fed at all. They can run away and reload and make another pass, but vs a much more manageable level of stingers.

Of course there is a very high variance in number of stingers getting hit by photons. The Hydrans can easily lose 10 stingers, or might lose only 4. This would have a very obvious impact on how the rest of the battle proceeds.



I certainly feel the feds are the trickiest, the photon counters the fusion, and is also a perfect stinger counter - guaranteeing a cripple on any hit.

On the other hand getting the range 6-8 shot in is tricky, on turn 1 you arm photons and keep power for all ph1, leaving you just enough power for speed 24. Stingers move after you and are far more manouverable, they decel at will, get a HET per turn and a turn mode of 1. If they shoot at range 9-10 then one of your ships is largely defanged, the stingers alone doing a good job of that, and aimed phasers from the main ships will have a good chance of stripping remining weapons. In addition if they are about to get that 9-10 shot off then they will declare evasive, fire and badly damage one of your ships then laugh as you either fire photons at 9-10, or ponder your next move against evasive stingers. Alternatively they go immediatley evasive and close with you. Your photons are as bad against evasive targets as their weapons are, at the point your photons become effective they will be dropping evasive and doing the point blank exchange - I lose 18 stingers you lose 4 ships, I go and count my 270pt victory margin.

That said, against a fed advancing aggresively a range 9-10 shot is not that easy to achieve. I think the main benefit the Fed has is that he can threaten that move in order to draw out the stingers before they may other wise launch, after all they need to launch and be outside of 8 to do any of the above. As soon as they launch you turn hard in another direction and leg it. I reckon you might be able to force the premature stinger launch far easier with a fed than say a gorn, and then have a chance of escaping, with the stinger being left somewhat out of position.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Quote:
Another possibility would be a Fed fleet of:

2 NCL
2 DW

This is 14 photons and 20 PH-1 that can be brought to bear. Let's assume the engagement range is 6-8 against the Hydrans. The massed firepower of 18 stingers, 2 Mohawks, and 1 Gendarme would probably kill 1 NCL. There probably isn't enough firepower to make it worthwhile spreading fire against 2 ships.

The feds answer back by firing 14 photons at 14 separate stingers and 20 PH-1 at the remaining 4 stingers. The 14 photons on average kill or cripple (depending on whether the Fed has enough power to partially overload each photon) 7 stingers and the 20 PH1 kill or cripple 4 stingers. That leaves 7 good stingers left plus 2 Mohawks and 1 Gendarme vs 1 NCL and 2 DWs. This isn't a bad deal for the Fed at all. They can run away and reload and make another pass, but vs a much more manageable level of stingers.

Of course there is a very high variance in number of stingers getting hit by photons. The Hydrans can easily lose 10 stingers, or might lose only 4. This would have a very obvious impact on how the rest of the battle proceeds.



I certainly feel the feds are the trickiest, the photon counters the fusion, and is also a perfect stinger counter - guaranteeing a cripple on any hit.

On the other hand getting the range 6-8 shot in is tricky, on turn 1 you arm photons and keep power for all ph1, leaving you just enough power for speed 24. Stingers move after you and are far more manouverable, they decel at will, get a HET per turn and a turn mode of 1. If they shoot at range 9-10 then one of your ships is largely defanged, the stingers alone doing a good job of that, and aimed phasers from the main ships will have a good chance of stripping remining weapons. In addition if they are about to get that 9-10 shot off then they will declare evasive, fire and badly damage one of your ships then laugh as you either fire photons at 9-10, or ponder your next move against evasive stingers. Alternatively they go immediatley evasive and close with you. Your photons are as bad against evasive targets as their weapons are, at the point your photons become effective they will be dropping evasive and doing the point blank exchange - I lose 18 stingers you lose 4 ships, I go and count my 270pt victory margin.

That said, against a fed advancing aggresively a range 9-10 shot is not that easy to achieve. I think the main benefit the Fed has is that he can threaten that move in order to draw out the stingers before they may other wise launch, after all they need to launch and be outside of 8 to do any of the above. As soon as they launch you turn hard in another direction and leg it. I reckon you might be able to force the premature stinger launch far easier with a fed than say a gorn, and then have a chance of escaping, with the stinger being left somewhat out of position.



The Fed can simply declare speed 16 on the 1st turn. This leaves 6 power for the NCLs and 5 for the DWs after powering photons and PH-1. During the critical impulses of approach, they accelerate and make the stingers move first (16+1 goes after 16). This pretty much guarantees that they can skip the 9-10 range bracket and go directly to the 6-8 bracket.

If the stingers go evasive early, then the Fed simply blows up one of the mother ships with photons and ph1 at range 8 and accelerates away from the stingers at 16+1.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another EXCELLENT force against the stingers is a Hydran Hellbore fleet. 2 Lord Bishops plus 1 Dragoon have 12 HB, 10 Ph-1, and 6 PH-G.

The beauty of this force is that you can credibly threaten to shoot stingers at range 15! 12 HB should destroy 7 stingers on average at that range before they even get off an effective shot. Then you either run away, or setup a PH-1 plus PH-G shot at 8 hexes.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another possibility is 2 Orion BCs and 2 Orion LRs.

The 2 BCs each have 1 HB, 3 Photons, and 2 PH1 as option mounts (the RB strongly implies that the Orion can exchange drone racks Y and Z for PH1).

The 2 LRs each have 3 Photons as options.

This gives a total of 2 HBs, 12 Photons, and 22 PH1s. The 2 HB fire at range 15 if possible at stingers. The 12 photons and 22 PH1 fire at range 8. This should kill or cripple about 12 stingers give or take a few. And with the +1 shift, it's unlikely that the stinger force can kill a BC at that range. They can certainly kill a LR, but that exchange heavily favors the Orion.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:

The Fed can simply declare speed 16 on the 1st turn. This leaves 6 power for the NCLs and 5 for the DWs after powering photons and PH-1. During the critical impulses of approach, they accelerate and make the stingers move first (16+1 goes after 16). This pretty much guarantees that they can skip the 9-10 range bracket and go directly to the 6-8 bracket.

If the stingers go evasive early, then the Fed simply blows up one of the mother ships with photons and ph1 at range 8 and accelerates away from the stingers at 16+1.


Stingers ALWAYS move after ships, speed is irrelevant.

Not that it matters, if they are already out it would require an incredible goof from the hydran to go straight from range 11 to range 8 when you are only 1 hex faster against stingers who can decel at will, turn on a dime and HET each turn. You will only catch the stingers at range 8 or less if they deploy to late.

At 16+ you are not going to get into range 8 of the hydran ships unless they want you to. If you try it after the stingers have gone evasive you are simply being led towards the stingers ready for them to drop out of evasive right on top of you. You don't want to be chasing the hydran ships only to end amongst the stinger mass.

I think if the feds can't get a range 8 shot off against stingers as they launch, and before they fire, and can avoid the range 9-10 hit then they should break off. The feds will be in a better position on turn 2, only paying to hold photons, and if the stingers are out then it is easier to plan based on where they are rather than where they may or may not be dropped off. I think that's what makes the Fed the trickiest race to deal with - it's hard to get the stinger deployment just right without either being left out of range or giving them a chance to wipe out half of them.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
Another EXCELLENT force against the stingers is a Hydran Hellbore fleet. 2 Lord Bishops plus 1 Dragoon have 12 HB, 10 Ph-1, and 6 PH-G.

The beauty of this force is that you can credibly threaten to shoot stingers at range 15! 12 HB should destroy 7 stingers on average at that range before they even get off an effective shot. Then you either run away, or setup a PH-1 plus PH-G shot at 8 hexes.


That's very unlikely. I can't think of many reasons to deploy stingers that far out. A shot at range 9-15 yes, but there is no reason that you will be provided anything other than a 9 or 10 shot. Neither can I see any reason that you would be given targets either side of the centerline, so you'd only be firing 6 hellbores without return at the stingers just after launch (though Iroquios are better for that intial strike with their FA HB). If you press to use all HB then it looks likely you will take out about 3-5 (with phasers as well) then get hit by the rest at range 8 as you swing the other sets of HB round (and don't forget the enemy main ships). You are likely to take out 8 or 9, but one of your ships will take a pounding (and again on turn 2). I don't see a decisve edge being gained.

If you went speed 16 to give you options with power then you probably end fairly close to the stingers and probably rather closer to the corner than healthy as turn 2 opens with your HBs empty. If you went speed 24, you have less options during the turn due to power, but, if you give up some phaser shooting and use up your HET (the turn mode 5 knacks you) you probably get a better chance of a better turn 2 start.

Firing all the HB on turn 1 leaves you with what I've found to be a nasty dilemma with the HB cruisers in the past - in that down turn your remaining firepower is basically forwards, if you try to run whilst rearming you will find it difficult to use what firepower you do have, especially on this fixed map, where you will find yourself wanting to go 24+ (and turn mode 5) in order to avoid the enemy cutting you off in a corner.

A Hellbore fleet looks good on paper vs the fusion/stinger force, but given the setup we are looking at I'm not seeing it as being that awesome in this scenario. You aren't getting the room you really need early on that will give you a notiecable edge by turn 3 as your hellbores are back up.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:

Stingers ALWAYS move after ships, speed is irrelevant.

Not that it matters, if they are already out it would require an incredible goof from the hydran to go straight from range 11 to range 8 when you are only 1 hex faster against stingers who can decel at will, turn on a dime and HET each turn. You will only catch the stingers at range 8 or less if they deploy to late.

At 16+ you are not going to get into range 8 of the hydran ships unless they want you to. If you try it after the stingers have gone evasive you are simply being led towards the stingers ready for them to drop out of evasive right on top of you. You don't want to be chasing the hydran ships only to end amongst the stinger mass.

I think if the feds can't get a range 8 shot off against stingers as they launch, and before they fire, and can avoid the range 9-10 hit then they should break off. The feds will be in a better position on turn 2, only paying to hold photons, and if the stingers are out then it is easier to plan based on where they are rather than where they may or may not be dropped off. I think that's what makes the Fed the trickiest race to deal with - it's hard to get the stinger deployment just right without either being left out of range or giving them a chance to wipe out half of them.


Hmm, I've been playing the stinger rule wrong. I thought they were treated as ships for the purpose of order of movement.

Given that, it's probably better for the Feds to move speed 24 and sacrifice some PH-1 fire for acceleration as needed (3 PH1 has a decent chance and 4 PH1 has an excellent chance of crippling a stinger at range 8 anyway). This should allow them to move from range 11-12 to 7-8 if it's timed properly.

If the stingers choose to move evasively before the engagement, then the Fed just nukes one of the mother ships and runs away.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another possibility is 2 Orion BCs and 2 Orion LRs.

The 2 BCs each have 1 HB, 3 Photons, and 2 PH1 as option mounts (the RB strongly implies that the Orion can exchange drone racks Y and Z for PH1).

The 2 LRs each have 3 Photons as options.

This gives a total of 2 HBs, 12 Photons, and 22 PH1s. The 2 HB fire at range 15 if possible at stingers. The 12 photons and 22 PH1 fire at range 8. This should kill or cripple about 12 stingers give or take a few. And with the +1 shift, it's unlikely that the stinger force can kill a BC at that range. They can certainly kill a LR, but that exchange heavily favors the Orion.


I'm not sure that is legal, 1 HB per group of at LEAST 3 ships, you have 1 group of 3, but not another 3 so I think you can only have 1 HB in that squadron. On the other hand the rule book seems to be explicit (rather than implicit) in saying you can have ph1 in the BC 'drone' mounts, no problem with that.

If you are not doubling the LRs they will be going speed 8. The BCs can go 16, with 3 power spare after weapons. I'd almost be tempted to accept the stinger loss for the sitting ducks in front of me, plus at the point the BCs are at range 8 the LRs are probably still at 9+ so more stingers will survive at that point.

Personally I think the Orions would look at the power left after prearm battery loss and start of turn arming, and promptly double engines. Lot of power, but the +1 disappears. To be honest thats not a bad idea in this scenario for the BCs - remember stinger fire is lots of small volleys, lots of power to batteries is actually just as good, probably even better as it allows you to choose to take a bit more damage but do other things instead.

e.g. average damage:
18 range 9-10 stingers no stealth = 45 damage
18 range 9-10 stingers +1 stealth = 21 damage

18 range 4-8 stingers no stealth = 57 damage
18 range 4-8 stingers +1 stealth = 33 damage

24 difference all round at range 4+.

An orion BC doubling gets 30 power (before engine damage kicks in next turn), and has the batteries to negate almost all individual stinger volleys (they max out at 7 if they roll 5 1s). So doubling gives it the power to negate on average what they gave up against stingers and have extra power, plus the option to take some extra stinger damage but do something else instead (HET, overload etc). The LRs are a bit more unfortunate, they will take more damage, quite a bit more damage, but they really do need to double if armed with photons like you suggest.

The LRs will come out of your exchange badly, not to mention your photon heavy force has the same issue as the feds - if you don't shoot at 9+ then the stingers may well go evasive on you after doing significant damage to an LR.


Again, you can forget range 15 shooting, They would have to be launched beyond 15 for that, why would they be launched that far away? range 9/10/11 shots is more likely the longest you would get on turn 1.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
mojo jojo wrote:
Another EXCELLENT force against the stingers is a Hydran Hellbore fleet. 2 Lord Bishops plus 1 Dragoon have 12 HB, 10 Ph-1, and 6 PH-G.

The beauty of this force is that you can credibly threaten to shoot stingers at range 15! 12 HB should destroy 7 stingers on average at that range before they even get off an effective shot. Then you either run away, or setup a PH-1 plus PH-G shot at 8 hexes.


That's very unlikely. I can't think of many reasons to deploy stingers that far out. A shot at range 9-15 yes, but there is no reason that you will be provided anything other than a 9 or 10 shot. Neither can I see any reason that you would be given targets either side of the centerline, so you'd only be firing 6 hellbores without return at the stingers just after launch (though Iroquios are better for that intial strike with their FA HB). If you press to use all HB then it looks likely you will take out about 3-5 (with phasers as well) then get hit by the rest at range 8 as you swing the other sets of HB round (and don't forget the enemy main ships). You are likely to take out 8 or 9, but one of your ships will take a pounding (and again on turn 2). I don't see a decisve edge being gained.

If you went speed 16 to give you options with power then you probably end fairly close to the stingers and probably rather closer to the corner than healthy as turn 2 opens with your HBs empty. If you went speed 24, you have less options during the turn due to power, but, if you give up some phaser shooting and use up your HET (the turn mode 5 knacks you) you probably get a better chance of a better turn 2 start.

Firing all the HB on turn 1 leaves you with what I've found to be a nasty dilemma with the HB cruisers in the past - in that down turn your remaining firepower is basically forwards, if you try to run whilst rearming you will find it difficult to use what firepower you do have, especially on this fixed map, where you will find yourself wanting to go 24+ (and turn mode 5) in order to avoid the enemy cutting you off in a corner.

A Hellbore fleet looks good on paper vs the fusion/stinger force, but given the setup we are looking at I'm not seeing it as being that awesome in this scenario. You aren't getting the room you really need early on that will give you a notiecable edge by turn 3 as your hellbores are back up.


You can change the fleet to an Overlord, Iroqois, and Tartar. That's 11 FA HBs which should take out 6-7 stingers at range 11-15 before they can fire. At that point, you either run away or have a fire exchange at closer range. With only 11-12 stingers plus the mother ships remaining, the amount of incoming damage is sharply reduced. Let's say 6 stingers were taken out. The 12 remaining stingers have 12 fusions and 12 PH-G. The 2 mohawks have 8 fusions, 4 PH1, and 2 PH-G able to bear. The Gendarme has 2 fusions able to bear. That's 22 fusions, 4 PH1, and 56 PH3 left. A range 10 shot averages about 54 pts of damage which is significant, but nowhere near crippling to any of the 3 ships. This would of course allow the HB fleet to cripple a few more stingers with PH1 and PHG fire.

The HB fleet's best bet is to take the cheap 6-7 kills and run away like a maniac. If the stinger fleet tries to get closer than 9 before launch, they'll either lose more stingers before being able to fire (with phaser fire a real danger), or risk the real possibility of losing a mother ship before being able to launch.

The major issue is that if they launch too early, the HBs get the cheap kills and run away. If they launch too late (range 9-11), the HB fleet will be able to get a range 8 shot the next impulse which should allow them to trade a ship for a lot of stingers.


Last edited by mojo jojo on Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
I'm not sure that is legal, 1 HB per group of at LEAST 3 ships, you have 1 group of 3, but not another 3 so I think you can only have 1 HB in that squadron. On the other hand the rule book seems to be explicit (rather than implicit) in saying you can have ph1 in the BC 'drone' mounts, no problem with that.

If you are not doubling the LRs they will be going speed 8. The BCs can go 16, with 3 power spare after weapons. I'd almost be tempted to accept the stinger loss for the sitting ducks in front of me, plus at the point the BCs are at range 8 the LRs are probably still at 9+ so more stingers will survive at that point.

Personally I think the Orions would look at the power left after prearm battery loss and start of turn arming, and promptly double engines. Lot of power, but the +1 disappears. To be honest thats not a bad idea in this scenario for the BCs - remember stinger fire is lots of small volleys, lots of power to batteries is actually just as good, probably even better as it allows you to choose to take a bit more damage but do other things instead.

e.g. average damage:
18 range 9-10 stingers no stealth = 45 damage
18 range 9-10 stingers +1 stealth = 21 damage

18 range 4-8 stingers no stealth = 57 damage
18 range 4-8 stingers +1 stealth = 33 damage

24 difference all round at range 4+.

An orion BC doubling gets 30 power (before engine damage kicks in next turn), and has the batteries to negate almost all individual stinger volleys (they max out at 7 if they roll 5 1s). So doubling gives it the power to negate on average what they gave up against stingers and have extra power, plus the option to take some extra stinger damage but do something else instead (HET, overload etc). The LRs are a bit more unfortunate, they will take more damage, quite a bit more damage, but they really do need to double if armed with photons like you suggest.

The LRs will come out of your exchange badly, not to mention your photon heavy force has the same issue as the feds - if you don't shoot at 9+ then the stingers may well go evasive on you after doing significant damage to an LR.


Again, you can forget range 15 shooting, They would have to be launched beyond 15 for that, why would they be launched that far away? range 9/10/11 shots is more likely the longest you would get on turn 1.


I think the 1 HB per 3 ship rule was explicitly overruled by 5L1 in the revised rulebook.

It does appear that the Orions are better off doubling engines immediately due to power issues. If they do that, then there's no difficulty in moving 24 and arming and firing all weapons. If that's the case, they have plenty of power for acceleration and deceleration as well. They should be able to fire HB at range 11-15 taking out 1-2 stingers. And they should be able to leap the 9-10 range bracket by going 24+1 on the critical impulse. Odds are that about 12 or so stingers are taken out for severe damage to a BC or a kill on a LR.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Given that, it's probably better for the Feds to move speed 24 and sacrifice some PH-1 fire for acceleration as needed (3 PH1 has a decent chance and 4 PH1 has an excellent chance of crippling a stinger at range 8 anyway). This should allow them to move from range 11-12 to 7-8 if it's timed properly.


How?

How are you closing 3 hexes with a only 2 hex speed advantage against units always moving after you with a turn mode of 1 and a free HET/turn?

Forget race for a moment, the fastest you can go is 24+, thats a 2 hex gain on stingers. If stingers really do not want to end up at range 8 too early then it goes something like:
On the deploy turn you can't shoot (deploy after offensive fire). On the next turn they can't shoot, but could go evasive. Then they can shoot. A deployment at range 11 guarantees evasive at range 9, and a deplyment at 13 has them at 9 when they can shoot, 14 may be safest if final facing might be an issue.

For someone who is charging straight at you at 24 (or +), deploy probably occurs on impulse 4. That makes deploy at 11/12 good (which is about what you will be at), evasive on impulse 5 at range 9. On impulse 8 you can still drop evasive and shoot if that seems good.


Quote:
I think the 1 HB per 3 ship rule was explicitly overruled by 5L1 in the revised rulebook.


4K1d still restricts that to 1 HB per 3 ships.

Quote:
If they do that, then there's no difficulty in moving 24 and arming and firing all weapons. If that's the case, they have plenty of power for acceleration and deceleration as well. They should be able to fire HB at range 11-15 taking out 1-2 stingers. And they should be able to leap the 9-10 range bracket by going 24+1 on the critical impulse.


See above.
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:

How?

How are you closing 3 hexes with a only 2 hex speed advantage against units always moving after you with a turn mode of 1 and a free HET/turn?


Because it's not a stern chase. The stingers are pointed at you, not away from you. The best they can do is decelerate twice which means you make up 4 hexes on the board going 24+1.


storeylf wrote:

Forget race for a moment, the fastest you can go is 24+, thats a 2 hex gain on stingers. If stingers really do not want to end up at range 8 too early then it goes something like:
On the deploy turn you can't shoot (deploy after offensive fire). On the next turn they can't shoot, but could go evasive. Then they can shoot. A deployment at range 11 guarantees evasive at range 9, and a deplyment at 13 has them at 9 when they can shoot, 14 may be safest if final facing might be an issue.

For someone who is charging straight at you at 24 (or +), deploy probably occurs on impulse 4. That makes deploy at 11/12 good (which is about what you will be at), evasive on impulse 5 at range 9. On impulse 8 you can still drop evasive and shoot if that seems good.


If the stingers points toward you, they will not be able to control the range to 9 or 10. If they point away from you, then you have won. They will never get a range 10 shot and you can pick them off at leisure. Or deal with the mother ships first.

storeylf wrote:


4K1d still restricts that to 1 HB per 3 ships.


This following rules question seems to support my point of view.

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2092
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