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What Can Beat the Orion Light Raider for the Points?
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ryanakent
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Joined: 17 Mar 2010
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Location: San Rafael, CA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: What Can Beat the Orion Light Raider for the Points? Reply with quote

My son and I are learning the game. He loves the Orion Light Raider with a gatling and two plasma-F loadout. With its stealth coating it is good at resisting direct fire. The plasmas can be used as stand-off weapons and can carronade if need be. Engine doubling can prevent any tractor attempts. I am hard pressed to come up with a ship that can beat it for the points.

I am thinking of trying to use the Romulan Snipe and sending a plasma G to meet him if he wants to close to range 8, followed by phasers and 2 plasma F's if he wants to continue to close to range 5, after which I will cloak and run.

If he runs from the G, I will follow him ready to corner him with 2 plasma Fs. Any thoughts?
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orions are indeed tricky, and I've also struggled with fighting them. That engine-doubling trick of theirs short-circuits so many of the "go to" tactics. Like you said, you can't win a tractor-auction, so no "Gorn Anchor".

With that said, I'll offer what feeble advice I have (pending better input from the usual hot shots around here).

One of the saving graces for fighting an Orion is the battery-limit on shield reinforcement. They can't "brick" their shields using engine-doubling in FedCom to the ridiculous degree possible in SFB.

The Orion's internal fragility is one of their key weaknesses. It's hard to get a solid hit on them, since they tend to be so darn fast, but once you get a solid hit with internal damage, you're on your way to winning. They really lack the ability to "shrug off" damage the way a "fleet" ship can (Orions don't fly around toting lots of Labs or Hull spaces to soak up hits).

If you can keep an Orion burning up his engines and hold your own while he is doing it, you're likely to come out ahead once he drops below the power-curve. The trick is to keep him doubling, whilst not getting killed.
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with Letting them burn up their engines is they never run out of engines DJ, a LR is the smallest ship that can be fielded with 4 repair points so it will always have one point of Warp damage, but that is all.

OK so lets take a look at what your son has a 79 point ship so lets look in the 71 to 87 point range:

The LDR Cheetah Frigate, Tholian Destroyer, and the Hydran Buffalo Hunter with no Fighters look like your best bet for fending off an Orion LR.

The LDR Ship carries 4 phaser G's... Those babies will devour your opponents plasma leaving you with minimal damage to absorb if any at all. The lack of phaser 1's is going to be your biggest problem here, The Orion will be able to use his 3 P1's to whittle you shields away while you try and close so you will have to approach as quickly as possible. The corrolary is that you have some nice disruptors that will do serious harm after a few turns of hitting the same shield. To start the game I would probably not put any more than starting power in my ESG but instead elect to go speed 24 and close quickly, that extra 3 points of power will be useful for sniping or shooting down plasma, in the ideal situation you will close to range 1, fire all phasers, HET and run from his plasma knowing you just bought 3 turns of plasma free manuever. Anyway there are a whole lot of options with this match up.

The Tholian Destroyer would be my Ideal choice against this Orion menace. You have 4 FX phaser 1's (arguably as good as 3 360 P1's) 2 disruptors and 2 web generators (also known as plasma ignoring devices read rule 5M3 and rejoice). This is a great setup for you, you have equal or more firepower and all of your weapons have brilliant long range potential. Just make sure his plasma impacts on the R or L facing shields and you remove 1/3 of his damage potential (there are a couple other tholian options here but this would be my choice). The Tholian strategy is a little more adaptable then the LDR and thats why I would pick it in a perfect world. As an aside is there a Photon armed Destroyer?

Lastly the Hydran Buffalo Hunter. I'll be honest, after looking at the Tholian and LDR options, I am completley unenthused by this ship. I am sure there is a good strategy for it I just don't know what it is and maybe someone who is a little more Hydran savvy would give it a stab.

Anyway Hope I helped
Regards
Nick
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the Gorn FF or DD? Or the Orion DW? Wink
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would the M81 Pirate Destroyer be a good match - or is it really more of an equivalent to the Orion DW?
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
What about the Gorn FF or DD? Or the Orion DW? Wink

Gorn would be a good choice as the Carronade option is flexible and not as vulnerable to the stealth coating. Added to that the Gorn damage absorption (all those shuttles and Labs). Plus if he does double his engines all the time he loses the stealth bonus. And the Carronade can be used every turn.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either of the two Gorn ships would be eaten alive by equal skilled players. Lets rule out the FF because it is undercosted and undergunned for the mission.

The Gorn DD will have a hard time finishing the job in this case simply due to the lack of direct fire weapons. The DD which is costed at 12 points higher then the LR has 2 phaser 3's and a Plasma G instead of the Orions Phaser G. Basically trading two phaser 3's for a plasma G (if you ignore arc of fire and power of course). You have a bit more firepower on the DD but you are trading in a lot of manueverability at high speed. Your Turn mode of C requires you to move 5 hexes before turning at speed 24, the Orion turns after 3. He will dance circles around your DD. DD weakest Shield is a 10, LR's is a 20... Plasma Carronade is great but Orions get to use it as well (They are the "and various other Empires" in the rulebook).

The Gorn DD looks like a strong canidate for one reason only it can take a beating with total Damage boxes of 54 to 39, a 15 box disparity means the ships is almost 40% larger then the LR. If you choose to fly the Gorn you have two main strategies Fly in fast and hard and hope for a great shot, or Bolt everything at range ten and pray yopu get 4's and below, if you do you will get a nice 10 internals with some phaser damage to boot, if not... well Didn't I say take the Tholian Destroyer Razz
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the LR's loadout here is historically unrealistic. It should either have Hydran tech or Gorn/Romulan/ISC tech, not both. If you cherry pick the best weapons available, that will tend to skew results.

Swap the Ph-G for say, a phaser-1, and the result will be more realistic. Or even a third plasma-F, though an LR will have trouble arming it.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completley agree here terry but half the fun of the Orions is their modularity. I think the rules allow this sort of load out, but to be fair if you mixed it up to say one phaser g and two photons ( more in line as feds had phaser G's) the results would be very similar if not worse, especially on a closed or even floating map.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feds only had phaser-G on escorts. And only on some of those.

3xPhoton is a scary loadout on a frigate size ship. The Fed FF, with only two, is a beast. The change from move cost 1/3 to move cost 1/4 without any shield, life support, or fire control costs gives frigates in FC a boost compared with frigates in SFB. Not really anything to be done about it, but be aware that with Orions the modularity can cause issues. I agree that the modularity is fun, but is also open to misuse, and you can come up with combos that are hard, if not impossible, to beat. So for the LR I think that 2xPl-F Ph-1, or photon 2xDrone, or even the "stinger-O" of Ph-G 2xFusion are pretty fair and fun to play.
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ryanakent
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my first match I played the Kzinti. The gatling destroyed all 4 drones and he fired 3 ph1s and carronaded me for two turns. I was done.

My next match I played a Rom BH. I lasted a bit longer, but it is really easy to lose a torpedo and I only had 2 to start with. I don't have the rules for Tholians yet, but even then I will have to deal with his stealth coating, which gives a distinct advantage in the direct fire war.

The Gorn's rear shields are just too weak. But at least it can carronade. I will give it a run and see what happens. I will launch the G as a 2 turn F and have it meet him at range 5. If he runs from it, I will chase him into a corner and launch my F's. then i will try and carronade him on the following turn.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry I agree that the 2 pl-f and phaser g are really strong but I wouldn't say it is unfair. Would it be allowed in a tournament? Watch out for his return carronade ryan and don't forget when he doubles engines he loses his stealth.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LR is pretty brittle, and the weapons it has are not that overpowering. Whilst there are a number of good ships that can play a mid/long range game (as noted earlier) there are some ships that can do the simple brute force charge in and win.

using direct fire (inc carronades) the LR does on average (approx):
range 0: 50 (max 59)
range 1: 46 (max 56)


A lot of warships at that point range can withstand that, so if they can get to those ranges and also fire they may well come of better. On a pristine LR with 3 spare battery power it takes 63 damage to guarantee a kill, close to that will give a good chance.

The hydran buffalo (without stingers) and the Lyran Police frigate are both within 6 points of his 79pt ship, and can vaporise an LR at range 0 or 1, with or without the stealth, whilst being guaranteed of surviving a me-to alpha with carronades (if not already damaged). As long as you can close fast and get to range 0 or 1 intact then you are pretty much guaranteed a win. If he fires plasma as you close then slip away for a few impulses and take any hit on an off shield, then close again whilst he is reloading.

You may have the problem of him firing before then, and need to plan on doing 24+ on the last impulse to close as quick as possible.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LR is tremendously maneuverable so running it down for a perfect r1 alpha is quite difficult.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
The LR is tremendously maneuverable so running it down for a perfect r1 alpha is quite difficult.


I know the LR is manouverable, but not quite sure what you mean by 'perfect' alpha. Both the ships I mentioned can pop the LR at range 1 without centerlining and without overloads. Far from perfect, but they only need 'good enough'.

The fact that the plasma is so flexible, and outrunnable in normal mode makes it hard to decide what may happen, but..

The Buffalo has the greatest chance of not popping the LR at range 1. Even with stealth the Buffalo might pop the LR at range 1, and even if it doesn't it will only be hanging on by a thread. The LR player probably won't even be able to afford to take frame instead of a last weapon without greatly increasing his chances of popping.

If the LR starts doubling engines then both ships can also out shoot it at range 9-15 as well, whilst also having more staying power. The LR wont need to double to start with, but once those plasmas are used it will be hard to resist doubling against ships that can instant pop you at close range, as it will need to keep up the speed as well as arm plasma. And once the doubling has started it will be hard to stop doubling, as even that 1 lost power from doubling will be hard to cope with.

The only place the LR has a noticeble firepower edge over the 2 ships is range 2-5 vs the Lyran and 3-5 vs the Hydran (or 4-5 vs hydran if without stealth). Under that range is death for the LR and over it is a long drawn out trickle damage affair, which the LR can only have any chance of winning if he doesn't double his engines and lose the stealth. Plus at some point he probably has the issue of map corners getting in the way.

Even at the 2-5 range, the fact that the LR needs to have the other ship in FA (for the phG) makes it a hard fight, keep the range to a very narrow band whilst ending up with a fast enemy still in FA.

If he fires at 4 or 5 all he may end up doing is taking out a shield and doing a few incidental internals, and then getting creamed anyway.

I'm not saying the buffalo or Lyran Police FF are going to win given reasonably skilled players, but I certainly don't see the LR being in a winning position either, I reckon either ship is a good match.
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