Federation Commander

[m1a1dat]

This situation came up for us in a recent game. The Romulan began uncloacking and then next impulse still during fade in he realized that he would end up much closer to many photons than he ad intended. So during the fade in impulse he announced evasive maneuvers and paid the energy. Now does the announcement of evasive maneuvers void the cloak immediately or when it begins to have an affect after direct fire?

And when looking for an answer in the reference rulebook I realized some curious wording on the turn break exceptions. In (2D4a) turn break exception 2 you can declare it in impulse 8 and not pay for it until energy allocation, and if you don't have the power in energy allocation you ship is destroyed. I get that but, it also says in parenthesis (it could not declare EM unless it had enough power at the time of declaration). This is what confuses me now. Does it mean that: (A) a ship would have to have enough available free power at the time as if it was mid turn and not using the exception and i just don't actually spend it at that point? Or (B) does it mean that the ship has enough undamaged power boxes (at that point) that it can pay for it next turn?

[mjwest]

Option B. The ship must be able to generate the power next turn.
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Federation Commander Answer Guy

[m1a1dat]

That's the way we have been doing it so at least we have been doing it right.

So when does evasive maneuvering start voiding the cloak, on announcment, leaving the ship vulnerable during direct fire, or when it takes affect after direct fire?

[storeylf]

[terryoc]

This whole thing came up because of continuing EM over a turn break problems, it used to end at the end of a turn but then there would be a window in which the ship was not protected by EM.

Weapons are not the same, since they are instantaneous and not continued over a turn break like EM
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West

[Savedfromwhat]

I would be fine with that storyelf, so long as you can't fire them again next turn just as an impulse 8 declaration of EM counts as you one declaration for both turns. Because you no longer gain the benefeit of EM the impulse it is declared it would be foolish to pay for it twice. EM is a very powerful tool but it is much more manageable with these new rules.

As far as losing the benefit of the cloak I would think it would happen when the EM takes effect which is after the direct fire phase (when the romulan can't fire) but before the launch phase (so the romulan cannot launch torpedoes).

Temper that response with the fact that Mike West is the fedcomm answer man and whatever he says is the correct ruling.

[storeylf]

Yes - but MWest is saying you do NOT even have to have power to do it, that is quite different. If I can borrow power off future turns for one thing, why not others? Any other reference to having power refers to having actual free power on your energy track, not just undamaged blue boxes. That is why it had never even occured to me about option B) noted in the first post.

Whether or not it used to end at the end of the turn, it does not now, so no need for such a rule. You can now opt to continue EM by paying during energy allocation and avoid it dropping. Therefore an EM on imp 8 is like anyother EM on any other impulse, it will take effect after everyone gets one fire then carry on so long as you pay for it each turn.

It is not the delayed payment that bothers me (well not as much), it is the fact that you can have the benefit of EM at the start of the following turn even if you didn't plan for the power need, If you run out of power for EM by impulse 8 than you shouldn't be able to get EM up in time for impulse 1. Its bad enough that you can hold EM power to 8, declare EM then use the power for other things, but at least you had to plan for it being there on 8.

[Savedfromwhat]

I know exactly what he is saying. Why are you taking such personal offense to the ruling? It is a simple game mechanic that keeps all the other impulses simple. You could just as easily say that you pay for EM when the +2 Shift takes effect but then we would have to keep records of "did you declare it last impulse?", "Did you pay for your declaration last Impulse?", Etc. It is just an accounting trick because in the old rule EM was effective at the moment of declaration, since that is no longer the case you could not effectivley have EM on Impulse 1 after a turn break. It is not a big deal or even "your opponent getting one up on you" it is just a simple accounting trick.

Besides just Direct on his Power and hope you blow away enough warp so that his ship explodes on the next impulse.

[Savedfromwhat]

[m1a1dat]

Evasive maneuvers and the turn break has always been a bit of a problem for FedCom. If you go back and look at older posts people were wondering since if they start it on impule 1 and it last the whole turn then why if they start it on impule 7 does it then stop at the end of the turn and they have to pay for it again to keep it up, why shouldn't it go on until impulse 7 of the next turn without having to pay for it again in energy allocation. Steve wisely decided that nothing carries over a turn break. That's the artificiality of the turn break and we just have to work around that.

As for when EM voids the cloak: I think it should be when it is announced and paid for. It's not just the evasive maneuvering but the spike in power usage that voids the cloak. Just as the high energy turn, you can tell ahead of time that it's going to happen before it happens. Voiding a cloak is always a very bad thing. But then maybe it needs to be balanced as the cloaked ship will not get a chance to fire at all.

BTW if you want to try something weird and fun about the artificial point of the turn break, then offset each players turn so that they are different. My energy allocation and impulse 1 is your impulse 5 this really changes things up. I did this once in SFB and it really changes things and you have to plan your turn very differently as it appears in your turn that enemy single turn weapons can fire twice and 2 turn weapons seem to fire every other turn. They don't of course, but it can seem that way. But without the 1/4 turn delay in firing that you have in SFB and not in FC this is pretty bad as some weapons can fire 2 impulses in a row.

[Savedfromwhat]

[storeylf]

[storeylf]

[mjwest]

I am sorry, but I am just not following all of the confusion.

If a ship invokes the "Turn Break Exception-2", then, as specifically stated, the payment of energy is not made until Energy Allocation of the following turn. Also note that the effect doesn't start until the next turn, either. So, you don't pay for it in impulse 8 because you technically aren't using Evasive Maneuvers yet.

"[I]f your ship lacks the energy to pay for EM at that time ..." is referring to Energy Allocation. It makes no sense to apply it to impulse 8, as the ship doesn't pay for it then, and the Evasive Maneuvers don't start then. The payment occurs in Energy Allocation. Besides, it would be absurd to destroy the ship because it doesn't have unused power in impulse 8, as that power has nothing to do with Energy Allocation on the following turn.

The parenthetical comment is just saying that if the ship cannot generate enough power to pay for Evasive Maneuvers when it makes the declaration, it can't make the declaration. The comment is important, however, as it is there to prevent a severely crippled ship from effectively self-destructing by declaring EM when it is impossible to power it. It is not saying that you need to have enough unused energy at the moment of declaration on impulse 8.

As for the second question, since it says "using Evasive Maneuvers", I have to go with when EM starts, not when it is declared. So, the cloak is not voided until the end of the Direct Fire phase when the EM takes effect.
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Federation Commander Answer Guy

[storeylf]