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Rule 2D2 High energy turns
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phul
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 05 May 2010
Posts: 41
Location: St. Louis

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:27 pm    Post subject: Rule 2D2 High energy turns Reply with quote

Hello all. Newish player here. Been playing for about 6 or so months. Was brought in by a friend who was an old SFB player who also recently discovered FC, and a couple other locals who play a little intermittently. I get to average about 2-4 games a month (much too few imo).

As I've been playing the games these last months the HET rules have increasingly caused me to think about them. The number of times that good/superior maneurvering by one captain has been completely negated by the HET is abit annoying on my part. The subsequent HET after the first 'safe' HET rules seem apt, there should be a risk to spinning your ship like a top. Generally my concerns around this applies to Meeting engagements since scenario restrictions/goals/etc usually negate this (mostly).

Guess I was just wondering why the 'safe' HET was included as opposed to increasing risks (1 in 6 chance, or some such that increases with each attempt).

As it is right now, a superior case of maneuver gets negated and results in alpha exchanges. Why bother to outfly your opponent instead of just flying down their face and doing the eventual alpha exchange that's forgone?
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m1a1dat
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 94
Location: 91320

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the free safe HET is there to get your ship out of unexpected trouble. An opps i screwed up and need to fix it. Yes it kind of sucks sometimes, as you state, but not everyone is willing to use it so freely as the situation is bad but you still might need that safe HET later as the situation might get worse.

It can be a good thing to get your opponent to burn his free HET. If you can make him do that and not become to decisievly engaged and you can force him to do it later he is really in a bind. If he uses the HET so much then you can plan for it and maybe can make him use it when he really doesn't need to. Try and fake him out!

Personally i think the break down should be more restrictive. You still shouldn't be able to face the way you intended and still be able to shoot right away. They toned it way down from SFB. It should be really a bad thing when you break down. The detriments of the break down aren't always so bad.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1869

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another way of looking at it is that you actually didn't outmanouver the opponent if you then caught by the HET, in fact he outmanouvered you. You both have it, you both know about so you should both plan for it. Its no different to EM etc, it is something you have to take into account with your tactics.

Not infrequently I have planned to HET after getting my opponent to do something, my HET is part of my tactics, I take account of his HET.
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ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have almost exclusively used the free HET offensively. Say I have a ship on my NCA's tail. You are closing to get a good shot on the Fed's backside. I would HET, face you, and send some photons down your throat.

But yeah, HETing can also get you out of a bind.
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djdood
Fleet Captain


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2925
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a big fan of the free HET (for reasons similar to the above), but it is what it is at this point.
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ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its something you just have to be ready before. All ships can do it, so, as Spock said, "sauce for the gander... the odds are even." I would have probably made the rule a small chance for the first HET to fail (1 in 6?), with it going up after that. So nothing is certain.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1869

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say I can't really think of many times where I've used the HET as an 'ohh ****' thing. I've used it to get out of being 'outmanouvered' but that usually applies where I know I am going to be outmanouvered in advance (e.g turn mode D vs turn mode B) and have therefore planned on that basis and to HET at an appropriate point. I therefore don't consider my self to have been outmanouvred in the tactical sense.

In most (or even all?) cases where a HET has been used against me I have known it was coming, or had anticipated that it was a distincty possibility even if I haven't known whether it would actually be used. Ditto, I don't think my opponents have ever really been caught out or seen it as some get out of jail trick.

Therefore I consider it a good apect of the game, it is just another part of manouvering and tactics that helps weeds the boys from the men Twisted Evil Indeed not using your HET whilst coaxing your opponent to use his is in itself a potent tactic, it then gives you options and a threat that he does not have.
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4468
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to say that if it's being used in every game...then it's being over used.

Out of our group of 12 players, we often go for entire months of game play without anyone using their free HET, much less extra ones.

And when it is used, it's more along the lines ofa tactical plan, not an "Oh S**T! Help!" maneuver.
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phul
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 05 May 2010
Posts: 41
Location: St. Louis

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd guess I'm seeing it about 1 out of every 2 games, but that might be inflated a little since it's something that's perked my ire. Definitely not uncommon though.

I understand the sentiment of 'well you haven't really out-manuevered them then', except that it feels like it negates the advantages of out-manuevering. And I mean more than just what results from turn modes (which can be relatively easily mitigated from what I've seen).

But, I'm getting the sense I may be a minority on this point, so I'll move on.

Smile
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ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In HET probably average a HET every other game. I go into it looking for opportunities to use it, just like with Evasive Maneuvers or anything else. So I am probably much heavier than others.

Is it as bad as scatterpacks in SFB? Not close.
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Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 641

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
I'd have to say that if it's being used in every game...then it's being over used.


I disagree with you here scoutdad, I think that if you are not using all of the options at your disposal in a game you are not playing at your full potential.

There are many things in this game that can seem overpowered until you find a way to counter it. I have heard the argument that "superior manuever is too easily negated by the HET" and I don't think it holds any water at all, reason being that good manuever takes into account your opponents ability to perform an HET, as it takes into account your opponents ability to: Use a tractor beam, engage a cloak, launch a suicide shuttle/drone/plasma, perform EM, Emergency Decel, Accel/Decel, Sideslip, and any other option or rule the game provides.

It would be very sad to see a day where the game's outcome is simply determined by who has the better turn mode. The Klingons ability to Manuever and fire weapons every turn is great, Fed photons are also great with their pure power, but without the HET it would remove a lot of the threat that Multi Turn Arming weapons present.

In closing I am trying to say that an HET will be used by a skilled Captain to place himself in an advantageous position with surgical presention. It can also be used against an inexperienced captain to take advantage of that inexperience. Be ready for the HET and you will not "get caught with your pants down" so to speak.
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ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly, Savedfromwhat. Very well said.
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phul
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 05 May 2010
Posts: 41
Location: St. Louis

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify, when I said superior Manuever, I wasn't referring to one ship having a superior turn mode over another. I was talking about one players ability to outfly another. Turn mode definitely contributes to it, but it's not the 'end all be all'.

Generally, I have no issue with the HET itself, just that there's no risk for the first one. It 'feels' right that there be some sort of/more risk involved (steeper risks for the larger the ship is, or dependant on how many times it's attempted, or both).
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1869

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certaily surprised to see some people are using HET very rarely, in the games I play all players (or at least the more experienced) use a HET in pretty much every game, it's just a fundamental aspect of manouvering and outmanouvering your opponent.

As also said above, I would consider a sad day if the free HET was removed.

I'd also add that at 5 move points even the first one is not exactly free or without risk. For most ships every HET involves a significant opportunity cost and risk due to the noticebale drop in power.
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4468
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Storyelf:
You are correct, and I mis-stated myself in an effort to quickly get a response on the board as I was headed out the door.

Using a HET in every game is not necessarily "over used". They are a valid part of the game and should be kept in your arsenal / bag of tricks / standard tactics / etc. There are certainly times when they can mean the difference between winning and losing a game and no Commander should voluntarily forgo something that may sway the game in his favor out of fear of that something being "over used"

What I was specifically referring to was the way in which some people use the free HET. Take my son for example (not Plasmaboy... the other one, Close'N Hose). His main tactic consists of:
Turn 1: Go straight... Fire
Turn 2: Go straight... Fire
Turn 3: Go straight... Fire
Turn 4: Either HET and run away from a less damaged ship, or Go straight... fire... overrun... HET and fire on Turn 5.

I'd guess the reason we rarely use them stems from the fact that we've all played SFB since 1980 or 81 and are all too aware of the possibility that a HET can be used against us. This tends to lead to manuevering with that thought in our minds and therefore; very rarely does the opportunity to use a HET to achieve that key positioning present itself. Now - that being said, should one of us slip up and allow that opening, we will certainly pounce on it and use the HET.
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