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Any tips on filling Orion WPN and DRN options for a BR?
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep this in mind, though. Granted if you are playing tourney games, Orions will have an advantage most of the time. However in the SFU, Orions seldom would fight in large groups of ships.

An easy fix would be to ban Orion fleets from tournaments. Perhaps limit each side to one "mercenary" Orion???
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HappyDaze
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We don't play tourney games, we typically just select a certain point value and go from there. The problem is that one guy 'claims' the Orions and will use them almost exclusively and typically with PH-1 loads to the point of being (IMO) abusive.

As for the one game, it's been three with Orions to this point. I don't need more than that to see the writing on the wall. I played SFB for years (and some games felt like they took that long by themselves) and while the shield brick is gone, the Orions still seem overpowered.

My force had 2 x F5W, 1 x D5W, and 1 x D7. Nothing in my force could compare to the shields of the BRs, especially with the effective damage reduction of Stealth. Drones were almost useless as two ships easily ignored a pair of eight-drone stacks.

As for being outplayed, it's doubtful that's the case. The other player agreed that he would have been sorely pressed to do any better with the Klingons either.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
Keep this in mind, though. Granted if you are playing tourney games, Orions will have an advantage most of the time. However in the SFU, Orions seldom would fight in large groups of ships.

An easy fix would be to ban Orion fleets from tournaments. Perhaps limit each side to one "mercenary" Orion???


Most of the time, or against most races?

From what I gather most of the time they will be facing LDR (an early Commuinque noted LDR made up 75% of players at a big tournament), I wouldn't say they would have an advantage there. LDR are the ultimate in no weakness ships, power, turn modes, long range (Disr/ph1) short range (Phg/ESG) and sturdy. The orion may have a long range edge, but on a fixed map that is a tough game. For the cost of a BR the LDR can have a turn mode A Alleycat that can run speed 32 whilst evasive and have enough power left over to hit with ~126 points of damage at point blank range (guaranteed kill with a bucket load of damage left over) whilst the Ph1 Br cannot realistically hope to kill the Alleycat at range 0.

I've equally white washed Orions with Hydrans (fusion/stingers - another tough group). It surprising how fast that map edge gets in the way of avoiding fast moving close range ships.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HappyDaze wrote:
The problem is that one guy 'claims' the Orions and will use them almost exclusively and typically with PH-1 loads to the point of being (IMO) abusive.

Sounds to me like it's him you should leave on the shelf, not the game! Smile

Try letting all the other players gang up on him. When it happens too regularly, he might - just might - see the light.....
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or play an Orion vs Orion battle. Maybe two rival Crime Lords are duking it out for some prime real estate...
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HappyDaze wrote:
We don't play tourney games, we typically just select a certain point value and go from there. The problem is that one guy 'claims' the Orions and will use them almost exclusively and typically with PH-1 loads to the point of being (IMO) abusive.

As for the one game, it's been three with Orions to this point. I don't need more than that to see the writing on the wall. I played SFB for years (and some games felt like they took that long by themselves) and while the shield brick is gone, the Orions still seem overpowered.

My force had 2 x F5W, 1 x D5W, and 1 x D7. Nothing in my force could compare to the shields of the BRs, especially with the effective damage reduction of Stealth. Drones were almost useless as two ships easily ignored a pair of eight-drone stacks.

As for being outplayed, it's doubtful that's the case. The other player agreed that he would have been sorely pressed to do any better with the Klingons either.


A tourney game is 450 pts, which is pretty close to your 500pts.

You don't say what the orion had, but IMO that is a bit of rag tag klingon force. 2 F5Ws in a simple 500pt shoot out just seems like a liability - at that size of fight a lot of races (your own force included) can do noticeable internals to them on the first long range exchange, that means potentially a quick drop in firepower and issues keeping a compact formation straight from the start of the game. Half your drones/ph1s and a third your disrupters are in ships that may well be smoking on turn 1 and 2.

You are trying to play a race that is generally a long range finesse race against another force that does long range finesse as well. Not surprisingly you don't see a clear advantage. As I said earlier, stealth affects long range fire the most, so yes klingons are in some ways the worst affected by stealth. Like it or not, with no many combainations of fights there are bad matchups, Lyran are a nightmare to Roms, that doesn't mean Lyran are overpowered.

Looking at the original noted BR, with all Ph1s vs the equivalent klingon (a D5). At range 9-15 the D5 will slowly out damage the orion* if the orion tries to keep to speed 24 (in order to maintain intiative). If he drops speed in order to outshoot the Klingon he risks losing initiative and possibly having the range closed down should the klingon desire, or be unable to close if he wants to. At ranges under 9 the Orion has a slight edge in potential average damage as long he doesn't have to use Phasers vs the drones (with a notable edge at range 3), though if he does double engines the advantage swings to the klingon. The Klingon has better arcs which gives him more leeway in delivering a good volley in a tight turning fight, but the Orion has the better turn rate at slower speeds (if he wants to go slow and risk the klingon having initiative in a tight fight). The Klingon also has a higher damage variance at close range, that means there is always a bit of a gamble that the klingon may do significantly more (or less) damage than expected whereas the orion is usually going to be closer to the average. At close range where internals are likely the orion probably needs to phaser any drones asap rather than risk losing tractors holding drones, that may make life awkward with limited reaction time to bring phasers in arc and sucks out firepower giving the klingon the edge in damage. DAC wise the klingon probably has a slight edge, the Orion lacks Torp, drone and Reac, the klingon has 2 redundant drone hits (ADD) and will usually last a bit longer before skipping boxes down a row towards anywarp. The Orions lack of torp and drone is a double edge sword - he may lose a Tran instead of a Torp but a run on the 6 row is very painful for the orion (especially if the klingon still has drones left). The Orion can aim every volley under range 10, but the Klink will have to decide on O/L or aim.

* - An interesting titbit here is that the Klink is unlikely to score a burnthrough, so every non batteried hit (all of them if the orion goes 24 and fires all Ph1s) is a shield hit. The Orion on the other hand will score a number of burnthroughs over many turns unless he staggers his volleys. But as they can not hit anything that has any lasting affect (like a drone rack) and wil be repaired straight away they are essentially lost damage points for the orion given the slow rate of damage - a 10 point volley results in 1 burthrough (repaired), 3 batteries and 6 shield hits. The klink should average 7 in return.

I reckon the orion has an edge, but hardly to the point I would say he is overpowered. Many matchups are tougher for someone than that fight. I woudn't be surprised if a lot of Fed cruiser captains get more frustrated trying to take on a klink cruiser.


You should also try other races before declaring Orions overpowered. Against anything that is good at close range and closes fast the orion will have hard choices to make balancing speed/manouver vs shooting vs engine doubling, on the other hand there will be a much clearer difference in capability at various ranges and desired tactics. Try Lyran, if he doesn't double then you can go speed 32 under EM and still have spare power on many ships. He either lets you close or he legs it without shooting much. If he does double then he looses stealth and starts losing at long range whilst damaging himself. There isn't a BR equivalent that I can think of, but an Orion BC vs King Jaguar looks a tough test of the phaser boat.
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HappyDaze
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Joined: 21 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played Lyrans many times. They are among my favorites, but I detest the broken cheese-dip fleet that is the LDR. However, the King Jaguar is not going to be too likely to meet its match since the larger Orion ships don't seem to be as good a deal for the point values, so I'm more likely to meet a larger number of medium-sized (and very deadly) Orion phaser boats. In effect, the BR seems to be where they peak as far as point value efficiency goes, and smaller Lyran ships - with many PH-2s - can't quite match up to them.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the King Jaguar is not going to be too likely to meet its match since the larger Orion ships don't seem to be as good a deal for the point values, so I'm more likely to meet a larger number of medium-sized (and very deadly) Orion phaser boats.


The king jag is the equivalent, points wise, of 2 orion LRs with ph1s. Not sure I fancy the Orion chances there, they suffer the same problem most such situations have - a larger ship can concentrate on 1 of the smaller ships and quickly take out the lower shielded more fragile ship. The LRS have 12 ph1s, the same as a BC for exactly the same points, though they lack the Ph3s.

Power wise, Both sides can do speed 24 and fire all main weapons on non-battery power, the KJ can also do speed 16 fire all main weapons and fully battery 2 volleys a turn on non-battery power, the LR cannot quite do that. The LR can double engines, but loss of stealth and self inflicted damage just compound their fire power disadvantage.

If the orions settle for a range 9+ engagement then they will lose. If the KJ gets to range 0 or 1 it can easily blow away one LR , and can muster enough firepower to (theoreticaly) wipe out both LRs in one go with just average damage. The LRs on the other hand usually won't even cripple a KJ at range 0 with all 12 ph1s.

The LRs have a clear turning advantage, but that is all they have to offset the Lyran advantages. I don't see the larger Lyran being clearly overwhelmed by multiple smaller Orion vessels.

Quote:

In effect, the BR seems to be where they peak as far as point value efficiency goes


In terms of ph1s The BR is less points efficient than a BC (by a fraction).

I dare say that different races see different changes in ship efficiency as they get large, but looking at klinks, as that was one of your complaints earlier.

Upgrading a Br to a BC adds 3 ph1s (capable of forward fire), 2 shield and 19 total extra boxes, whilst a D5 to a D5W gets 2 extra ph1s and upgrades 2 (back end) ph3 to ph2 and 16 total extra boxes.

I don't see an obvious decrease in efficency there relative to the klingons. I'd say they are about the same.


Quote:

and smaller Lyran ships - with many PH-2s - can't quite match up to them.


The lyran doesn't have a BR equiavalent, but droppping down to a Double raider you are looking at a Lyran Alleycat. The Orion looks a monster with 8 ph1s and 4 ph3, but it is under powered compared to the alleycat (unless you start doubling), and they both have the same turn mode. The Alleycat can do speed 24 fire all main weapons and have a point of power left for battery. At longer ranges there is not much difference between a Ph1 and a Ph2 vs stealth (average 0.5 to 0.33). The Orion has to surrender move initiative (and go slower) just to stay equal with the alleycats long range damage. At close range the lack of a turn mode advantage means the Alleycat is more likley to get those ESGs in, if he does then it is, more or less, good bye Orion. The orion has the firepower advantage in the 3-8 ranges, but the power difference could make that hard to take adavantage of. The Alleycat could just dispense with long range and hit speed 32 whilst under EM with power for batteries and repair the odd point of damage he takes in shields. The orion just can't out run him whilst outshooting such a ship, and presumably at some point hits a map edge stopping him outrunning either. Both sides have some advantage they can use, but overall they look to stack up in favor of the Lyran to me. Or at least I'm not seeing an obvous lost game for the lyran.


I like orion phaser boats and their flexibility in the tourney style game where you can't be sure what you will come up againt. But I am not seeing your argument that the Ph1 boat is overpowered, either generally or even at the smaller/medium end.
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Capt Jack
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Any tips on filling Orion WPN and DRN options for a BR? Reply with quote

[quote="HappyDaze"]I'm looking at the Orions after a few recent games where their excellent Turn Modes impressed me. I'm also really in favor of their PH-1 loadouts after running Hydrans and Lyrans with PH-2s. However, I'm not entirely sure what to take in my OPT mounts.

The ship that stands out in my eyes as a great blend of maneuver, durability (for an Orion), and firepower is the Battle Raider. What are suggest OPT selections for this ship?quote)

Well. depends on the battle. My personal fav is Drones, Drones and more drones! If you cant put drones in said mount then disrupter or PH1. With drones no power cost. So you can use energy for batterys or shield repair. Also good ship for small base assualt.
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Capt Jack
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Flying 2 Orion ships then try ph G Left wing and ph G right wing!

Why!

Well, I think most wing mounts are LS and RS. Therefore if flying 2 ships togethor you will get 360 phg. And if you centreline the enemy 2 ph Gs. If they are foolish enough to be chasing you then a possible 8ph 3s and 2Gs. Shocked
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Jack, Orions can typically only take one gatling phaser.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
Captain Jack, Orions can typically only take one gatling phaser.

Terry... he means if you take two (or more) Orions... you should take one with a LS- Ph-G and one wiht a RS- Ph-G. This effectively gives you a 360 degree Ph-G.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Re-reads post]

D'oh!

Yes, I suppose that's true, although you'd need to fly them as a unit.

What would you take in the other wing? Something with a 360-degree arc, like a drone rack or ADD?
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
[Re-reads post]

D'oh!

Yes, I suppose that's true, although you'd need to fly them as a unit.

What would you take in the other wing? Something with a 360-degree arc, like a drone rack or ADD?

I've seen a lot of people with the Gatling+Drone or Gatling+ADD which can be very handy in a drone-heavy environment but I think I'd prefer even an additional Ph-1 anywhere but Kzinti space.

Personally I like to put an "on demand" heavy weapon like fusion or disruptor if I put a Gatling in one wing. That way you don't have to put any energy into until you get a good firing opportunity.

Lots of people put in photons on Orions but those pretty much require engine doubling and I like to have the option to use stealth and/or cloak on running/repair/rearm turns. Frankly, if you want to run around hammering people with photons, Feds are better at it.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duxvolantis wrote:
Frankly, if you want to run around hammering people with photons, Feds are better at it.


I don't think that's the case with the Orion BC or smaller ships. If you compare the Orion BC with 4 photons and 2 PH-1 in option mounts to the Fed NCA, CA, CC, or CS, the Orion is way better for roughly the same points.
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