Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Hydrans vs Fed - Important lessons learned
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Tactics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
alanhobbs
Ensign


Joined: 24 Jul 2011
Posts: 4
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject: Hydrans vs Fed - Important lessons learned Reply with quote

Well as a new player and still getting used to the rules I played my third game on Sunday night. As the topic title says this was Hyrdans vs Federation. I can't remember what the Hydran ships were but I know the first game I had two heavy cruisers.

Game 1 - Loaded up my torpedoes and flew straight towards the Hydrans. They launched the fighters and this was the lead up to my valuably learned lesson. I concentrated fire on the biggest Hyrdan ship (Ranger I think) I was about two hexes away and did a bit of damage, taking it the forward shields etc. This was when the lesson about Hydrans was learned, my front cruiser went out in an almost blaze of glory. I think I had the frame and one bridge box undamaged.

Lesson I learned that the fighters can be deadly at short range when combined with other ships.

Game 2 - Used a light cruiser and a battlecruiser this time. I used my knowledge of the fighters to try and shoot some of them down this game. I successfully managed to cripple one and blow up two. But it was still not enough, mainly because I forgot the important lesson from the first game. I got too close and the light cruiser paid the price and fire ball of glory. The battlecruiser decided to withdraw at that point.

So I learned some knew rules and even tactics. But would appreciate any comments from anyone on how to combat Hydrans.
_________________
Alan Hobbs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
terryoc
Captain


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1379

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think I had the frame and one bridge box undamaged.


Sounds like the Hydran gunners were having an off day Smile

Try Klingons vs Hydrans. The disruptors are quite good at picking off Stingers at range, and the ADDs help a little too.
_________________
"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3491
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know how the Feds like to get close to everyone? Well, not everyone. If you are fighting Hydrans with lots of fusion beams, you will want/need to keep the range open. Try and attack at range 8 (accepting the 50/50 odds), and try to stay at range 11+ during the reload turns.

Also, go fast. The idea is that once the fighters are launched, make the Hydran player choose between separating the ships from the fighters (because the fighters are limited to a maximum of speed 16), or letting you completely control the range.

But charging into the teeth of Hydran fusions is a guaranteed loser.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
pinecone
Fleet Captain


Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, if the Hydran is using Hellbores, make it a priority to kill those ships first. They can hurt you at range 8, while the Fusion ships can't.
_________________
Doomed to live in secret since discovering that the Air Force Tapes were a fantasy... Embarassed

"Your knowledge of my existence must be punished" Twisted Evil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SFU_FEAR
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only time anyone should get to range 8 or less with the Hydrans is when you know they can't fire at you.
_________________
Mike Curtis, FEAR, Copyright 2014 ADB, Inc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 641

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will echo what mjwest said about separating the fighters from the main ships. Fighters are slow drones with big teeth, make sure you are doing at minimum speed 16 after they are launched and 24 until then. Big question is closed or open map?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DaveP.
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because fusion beams don't have to be powered until the moment of firing, fusion ships can be pretty fast. Consider using standard loads at range 8 rather than slowing down to overload.
Hydran ships were designed to soak up a massive pounding and still destroy their opponents ("Take their best shot... then blow them up") so use Directed Targeting as much as you can. (3D4) to weapons is the doom of Hydrans.
My regular fighting partner KlingonsofGor) refers to fighting Hellbore ships as "being on the clock". He's right: if you give a hellbore ship or squadron enough time, they can keep on dropping internals through a down shield no matter what your relative facing is; so once you have a shield down you have big trouble. The balancer for this is that Hellbores don't (usually) damage facing shields; if you're moving to attack a Hellbore ship, your facing shield will recieve only minor damage from the Hellbores and (unlike all the other races) Hydrans can't concentrate their phaser and heavy weapons damage from the same volley onto the same shield.
_________________
Don't turn your head to the left, because I'll pass you on the right. Don't turn your head to the right, because I'll pass you on the left. And if you slow down, I'll run right over you.


Last edited by DaveP. on Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1879

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To echo the comment above, open or closed map makes an enormous difference here.

The 'standard' closed map (42*30) pretty much leaves you fighting a major uphill battle. You lack the room to maintain distance, and even the fighters will be difficult to keep away from. You won't be avoiding range 8 on such a map and you won't be keeping at range 11+ whilst reloading.

Hydrans are one of the best empires (arguably the best) on a smallish closed map. Stingers are brutally effective, even out at range 10. The fusion ships are all power on demand, and the phasers will make short work of most stuff up close. The fusion ships are also cheap, e.g. you can get 4 cruisers (without fighters) to most empires 3.

How many fighters did he have? was a it just an odd couple to make up points, or was it stinger heavy with ships being more secondary?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Hydrans vs Fed - Important lessons learned Reply with quote

alanhobbs wrote:
Well as a new player and still getting used to the rules I played my third game on Sunday night. As the topic title says this was Hyrdans vs Federation. I can't remember what the Hydran ships were but I know the first game I had two heavy cruisers.

Game 1 - Loaded up my torpedoes and flew straight towards the Hydrans. They launched the fighters and this was the lead up to my valuably learned lesson. I concentrated fire on the biggest Hyrdan ship (Ranger I think) I was about two hexes away and did a bit of damage, taking it the forward shields etc. This was when the lesson about Hydrans was learned, my front cruiser went out in an almost blaze of glory. I think I had the frame and one bridge box undamaged.

Lesson I learned that the fighters can be deadly at short range when combined with other ships.

Game 2 - Used a light cruiser and a battlecruiser this time. I used my knowledge of the fighters to try and shoot some of them down this game. I successfully managed to cripple one and blow up two. But it was still not enough, mainly because I forgot the important lesson from the first game. I got too close and the light cruiser paid the price and fire ball of glory. The battlecruiser decided to withdraw at that point.

So I learned some knew rules and even tactics. But would appreciate any comments from anyone on how to combat Hydrans.


It looks like you were fighting a 300-310ish pt battle with the Ranger plus fighters weighing in at 191 and the second ship being either a Lancer (117) or perhaps one of the hellbore ships like the Knight or the Tartar.

Frankly whether he has Hellbores or not on the second ship is not that relevant about how you play him--with this many fighters that is determined by whether the map is closed or floating.

On a floating map you will probably use standard loads and patience to kill targets of opportunity. So much of his firepower is invested in his Stingers that if you can pick enough of them off you can go in and slug it out with hiis cruisers. Do pre-load on a floating map but only load each photon to 10 pts. You can always add more if you get a great shot at the ships and a 10-pt photon blows up a Stinger.

(range 4 works great for this close pass, btw as it is outside the good range of his phaser-2s, G's and fusions while being inside very good ph-1 range and a 1-4 to-hit with photons)

On a closed map the situation is more dire as you will not have a lot of map to use. In this case I will typically not preload and instead charge across the map at top speed to encourage him to launch fighters early and at the very least put a lot of map behind me to circle back into after the first pass.

Some of the tips in this thread are very good:
directed damage for weapons on hydran ships definitely--esp if it is a hybrid but even if not two good volleys can leave the hydran with a ship with lots of power but no weapons to fire. (Beware, a fusion can be repaired and immediately fired just like a disruptor! So can a Gatling.)

You want to take out the #1 shield on a Ranger. It is much harder to close to very close range if you have to do so behind #2 and #6 and the Ranger loses ~35% of his firepower off centerline (1 Gatling and 2 Fusions).

Beware the "Hydran Anchor". The Ranger has a lot of power and can take a pounding. If he gets a tractor beam on you while he still has 5 or 6 Stingers, you are a dead ship floating. Avoid range-1 at all costs. It will not end well for you.

Not an easy win for the Fed on a closed map. On an open map the Hydran has a very hard time.
_________________
Dux Volantis
Romulan Star Empire
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Klingon of Gor
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other people have rightly pointed out that when fighting Hydrans, especially fusion fleets, speed is life. It follows from this that carrying overloaded torps is a bad idea. You need that power for movement. Also, because Hydran ships are built tough, you want to gp for directed damage, always. Directed damage weapons is preferable. (Directed damage power systems may work on fusion ships by slowing them down. If they can't close, they can't do much to you. Then again, if you take out the fusion beams, they can't do much to you either.) Hydrans don't have a huge number of weapon mounts, and a few passes through the 6 row on the DAC can leave them mostly defanged.

However the Hydrans are armed, do NOT let yourself get tractored. They have more reserve power than you, and a shrewd Hydran captain will delight in launching his fighters after he wins the tractor auction. Your ship will be reduced to a cinder in short order.

One of the fine points about photons is that you need an exit strategy. Have a cheek sheild facing the Hydrans when you fire the torps. You can turn away more easily when you need to open the range. (And with fusion ships, you WILL need to open the range.) Don't plow straight in. Feds are generally turn mode D. As the old country song went "Give me forty acres and I'll turn this rig around...". Keep your turn mode satisfied, and use slips as much as possible to position yourself.

Hydrans are beatable, but they never go quietly, and sometimes they just don't go.
_________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Philip K Dick
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1879

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Hydrans vs Fed - Important lessons learned Reply with quote

duxvolantis wrote:
Do pre-load on a floating map but only load each photon to 10 pts. You can always add more if you get a great shot at the ships and a 10-pt photon blows up a Stinger.


10 points? - 12 or 16 are your overloads. 12 pts doesn't cost you any less in holding than 16 pts. So if you are going to overload you may as well go full on. Paying to overload at the point of fire is probably to expensive power wise during a close in attack against hydrans, unless your timing is impeccable

Quote:

(range 4 works great for this close pass, btw as it is outside the good range of his phaser-2s, G's and fusions while being inside very good ph-1 range and a 1-4 to-hit with photons)


Remember he has the move edge so will be moving after you - don't expect a range 4 attack, 3 or 5 is what you may get.

Range 4 isn't that great, 10 or so stingers will still output 30 odd damage, plus some power aimed volleys from the ships can leave one of your ship in real trouble, just as you want to start reloading, with the hydran ships still close, and not needing to reload.

Alternativley the volleys from the ships might drop your shield and then leave you taking 30 odd internals from the stingers in perfect 3 point (average) groups. They can't aim, but lots of 3 point volleys can be better than 2 larger aimed volleys.

For example, 2 * 15 point volleys aimed at power score a mean average 12 power and 2 weapon hits. But 10 * 3 pt unaimed volleys average 11 power and 8 weapons.

A ship that takes that is probably about to effectively die next turn as it will not be able to outrun the hydran ships. So it may not be a great exchange.

If you do go for the that sort of fairly close range attack then try and take advantage of the fact that he has to split up into mutiple stacks and try and get some split shield defense going on.

Quote:
directed damage for weapons on hydran ships definitely--esp if it is a hybrid but even if not two good volleys can leave the hydran with a ship with lots of power but no weapons to fire. (Beware, a fusion can be repaired and immediately fired just like a disruptor! So can a Gatling.)


I'd prefer aiming at a non-hybrid fusion ship, as that means another phaser hit. That is 3 phaser hits on the 6 line. Losing phasers hurts more than losing fusions. Fusions are the nearly always the last weapon to fire once every bearing phaser has been powered, as they are just not that efficient, plus they don't fire every turn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: Hydrans vs Fed - Important lessons learned Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
duxvolantis wrote:
Do pre-load on a floating map but only load each photon to 10 pts. You can always add more if you get a great shot at the ships and a 10-pt photon blows up a Stinger.


10 points? - 12 or 16 are your overloads. 12 pts doesn't cost you any less in holding than 16 pts. So if you are going to overload you may as well go full on. Paying to overload at the point of fire is probably to expensive power wise during a close in attack against hydrans, unless your timing is impeccable


*grumble mode on*
I keep forgetting how they screwed up photons by "simplifying" them. I guess fractions are too hard for gamers these days and "it costs 1/4 the energy to hold and you get 2 damage for every point of energy" was considered really really hard to keep track of. Smile
*grumble mode off*

I even thought as I was driving to a meeting later today "I bet you can't do 10-pt photons anymore and storyelf is going to correct me" Smile

In this case do standard loads for the stingers but it is worth it, in my opinion, to put in the extra OVL energy for a 12-pt warhead to not leave a cripple on the map *if* you have the energy. If you don't, take the cripple and finish it off with phasers.

storeylf wrote:
Quote:

(range 4 works great for this close pass, btw as it is outside the good range of his phaser-2s, G's and fusions while being inside very good ph-1 range and a 1-4 to-hit with photons)


Remember he has the move edge so will be moving after you - don't expect a range 4 attack, 3 or 5 is what you may get.

I never said it was easy. That being said 5 is better than 3 as you will get a lot of oomph out of the phaser-1s. And if the Hydran gambles and holds fire you may knock out weaponry before he gets to fire it.

storeylf wrote:

Range 4 isn't that great, 10 or so stingers will still output 30 odd damage, plus some power aimed volleys from the ships can leave one of your ship in real trouble, just as you want to start reloading, with the hydran ships still close, and not needing to reload.

I should have been more clear. I anticipate the Range 4 pass on turn 3 or 5 after the Stinger population has been reduced or after the Stingers have been separated from the ships. If they stay together then they are traveling at speed 16 and you should be able to take a range-8 shot and have plenty of map to evade the Stingers--even on a fixed map.
storeylf wrote:

Alternativley the volleys from the ships might drop your shield and then leave you taking 30 odd internals from the stingers in perfect 3 point (average) groups. They can't aim, but lots of 3 point volleys can be better than 2 larger aimed volleys.

For example, 2 * 15 point volleys aimed at power score a mean average 12 power and 2 weapon hits. But 10 * 3 pt unaimed volleys average 11 power and 8 weapons.

A ship that takes that is probably about to effectively die next turn as it will not be able to outrun the hydran ships. So it may not be a great exchange.

If you do go for the that sort of fairly close range attack then try and take advantage of the fact that he has to split up into mutiple stacks and try and get some split shield defense going on.

Quote:
directed damage for weapons on hydran ships definitely--esp if it is a hybrid but even if not two good volleys can leave the hydran with a ship with lots of power but no weapons to fire. (Beware, a fusion can be repaired and immediately fired just like a disruptor! So can a Gatling.)


I'd prefer aiming at a non-hybrid fusion ship, as that means another phaser hit. That is 3 phaser hits on the 6 line. Losing phasers hurts more than losing fusions. Fusions are the nearly always the last weapon to fire once every bearing phaser has been powered, as they are just not that efficient, plus they don't fire every turn.

I do directed fire at both. I think it hurts the hybrids worse as drone and fusion hits both strip heavy weapons. I see your point about the inefficiency of fusions. However there are many situations where the Hydran wants to convert as much energy into damage as possible and you want to fire everything possible. One Hydran trick if they can't get centerline is to fire one side+phasers and then stay close and finish things off with the other two fusion beams. I think you will agree that if you have an Impulse 1 firing solution with a fusion boat, you will usually want to fully arm every weapon you can bring to bear. And you will want to spend damage control on phasers.
_________________
Dux Volantis
Romulan Star Empire
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alanhobbs
Ensign


Joined: 24 Jul 2011
Posts: 4
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys thanks for all the advice and tactics.

Should have said we were playing on a fixed map.
_________________
Alan Hobbs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1960
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other thing to bear in mind is that in order to avoid knife range with the Hydran (which I would think is what you want to do), you may well be burning a lot of your power to go at Speed 24. This could be in order to avoid knife range by having the speed to keep away from him, or simply to have better initiative.

But my point is that you may not have as much power for all those phasers and photons as you would like.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
kirbykibble
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Jun 2011
Posts: 82
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

welcome to FC Alanhobbs!
the best tactic that i do, is to concentrate fire at the fighters at a long distance away. if you get too close, the Hydrans can easily defeat you (which is not historically correct as the Hydrans usually lost)
anyway, take out about 80% of the fighters and try to cripple the rest. also cause so damage to the Hydran ships through drones and phasers.
this may have a chance to destroy a hellbore or fusion beam.
_________________
We are the ISC! NO ONE CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT IT STANDS FOR!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Tactics All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group