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Same-hex shield facings
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pmiller13
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem here is one that can only come about when two ships are traveling at the exact same speed, or if different then one slows down or speeds up so that during an impulse, the two ships continue to move into the same hexes. In this case it is important to understand what is meant by ‘relative positions’ and also to remember that the hexes on the map represent a very large volume of space, 10,000 kilometers across.

So in the example given the F5 enters the hex off the number #3 shield of the BC. Now on the map the ships appear to be right on top of each other but in fact the ships are still several thousand Kilometers apart (point blank range in combat but still a large relative distance). During the next sub-impulse the BC moves directly forward and the F5 does the same. The argument given is that the F5 should now be off the BC’s number #4 shield as per (3C6d) you would move the F5 back 1 hex to determine shield and therefore weapon firing arcs. However note that (3C6d) states ‘if both entered at the same time, judge them from these previous hexes’. Both ships entered the hex during the same sub-impulse and therefore at the same time so (3C6d) is of limited use. Having a better turn mode does not make you faster than another ship other wise the F5 would have to move before the BC not after and therefore would be infront of the BC by (3C6d). Having a better turn mode makes you more maneuverable and there able to react better to your opponents movements this is why ships with better turn modes get to move after ships with worse turn modes. However if you go back to ‘relative positions’ and realize that both ships are traveling the same speed in the same direction there is no way for them to change this relative position. To visualize this imagine that you are driving down a road and a car merges from an on ramp into the lane next to you going exactly the same speed and the car is off your right rear bumper. That car will stay in that exact spot as long as you both continue to go the same speed, even if you are driving a clumsy semi and they are driving a Porsche. The only way for the relative positions to change is for someone to either change speeds or to turn. Draw out a picture and put time indexes on it and you will see this is true. While one could try to argue that the F5 is trying to use its maneuverability to slide in behind the BC it is possible to counter argue that the BC is going to be trying to prevent that. We would need a whole set of rules as how you have to have a sub-map on the side to track where the ships are relative to each other and allow movement on that map each impulse and so on. We do not need extra rules and extra complications. Just leave it at relative positions can not be changed unless the ships are in different hexes for at least one sub-impulse.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Let's assume a Federation heavy cruiser is fighting a Romulan War Eagle. Both are moving at the same speed (16) and have the same Turn Mode. The War Eagle is cloaked and comes in to "underrun" (cloaked overrun) the heavy cruiser. The heavy cruiser is facing A. The WE is facing D. On sub-pulse #2, the heavy cruiser and WE both move forward and end the sub-pulse in the same hex as each other. Each is still directly in front of the other. The WE is in direction A of the heavy cruiser, and the heavy cruiser is in direction D of the WE. On sub-pulse #4, both ships move (simultaneously in this case). The heavy cruiser's captain wants to be in the same hex as the War Eagle and "depth charge" it with his phasers. The heavy cruiser chooses to use a high energy turn to turn to direction D, the same facing as the War Eagle. It then moves straight ahead. Since the two ships started the sub-pulse in the same hex and finished the sub-pulse in the same hex, they still have the same relative facings! The WE is still in direction A of the heavy cruiser, and is now facing the #4 shield. So during the Offensive Fire Phase, only the heavy cruiser's rear firing phasers can fire at the War Eagle! The heavy cruiser's captain should have decelerated (to make sure he and the War Eagle were not in the same hex) then accelerated on the next Impulse to catch up for the Range zero shot.

Even if the Federation ship had a better turn mode than the War Eagle, the situation would be the same: the two ships began and ended the sub-pulse in the same hex as each other, and their relative positions therefore did not change.


Your description of what happens with simultaneous moves sounds right, you go back the previous hexes, which were also the same hex so go back again until you get to the point they first entered the same hex. This is where MWests ruling makes sense.

Your description of what happens if one ship has the better turn mode does not follow 3C6d however. Neither does MWests rule.

3C6d is fairly simple: Are you in the same hex at time of firing = yes, therfore move the ship that moved in last to its previous hex and work out the shield facing with that ship there and the other ship still in the hex that you are both in.

MWest has previoulsy confirmed that different order of movement means that they did not move at the same time. So having a different turn mode does change the situation from simultaneous movement.

3C6d works whether or not you were in the same hex previously or not.

In the OP the F5 moved in after the BC so when it comes to fire you move it back to where it came from, leaving the BC where it is, and work out shields from there, the F5 is hence behind the BC. The fact that both ships were in the same hex as before is irrelevant, the same result applies either way.

MWests new ruling about keeping the same relative position contradicts 3C6d for no obvious reason.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pmiller13 wrote:
We do not need extra rules and extra complications. Just leave it at relative positions can not be changed unless the ships are in different hexes for at least one sub-impulse.


Alternatively just apply rule 3C6d as it stands rather than introduce a new rule. Position depends on who moved into the hex last on any given subpulse. Either side can try to accelerate/decelerata/slip or turn to alter the position.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the referenced thread, a quote by MWest:

Quote:
But, order of movement does matter. So, if, in my last example above, Ship B was moving at a lower base speed than Ship A, or if they were moving the same base speed, but Ship B had the worse turn mode, then only ship A would be moved back. In that case, the final ship facing would match the first two examples.


This indicates that if two ships are in the same hex and both move on a subsequent sub-pulse into another hex, the last ship to move into that new hex determines the relative positions, shield facings, and firing arcs.

This seems to be the idea that StoryElf is trying to get across.

Whoever moves last into a hex determines shield facings (just like 3C6d says). If the two ships continue moving into the same hex over and over again, all the facings and arcs should be determined by the ship that moves into that hex last during each of those sub-pulses.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pmiller13 wrote:
...the hexes on the map represent a very large volume of space, 10,000 kilometers across.

At the risk of detracting from what has become a very interesting and involved discussion, that's something else it doesn't exactly say in the rules.

Just being pedantic; now back to the topic:

pmiller13, that's how I understand it all at the moment, and it's how MJW has explained it. For myself, I will go along with whatever the designer/his deputy (i.e. SVC or MJW) say the rule is. Unless what they're saying is that it's clear, but then I've already said I don't think it is by asking the question Wink
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OGOPTIMUS
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to point fingers or also detract from the discussion, but the rules do say that. Rule 2A2.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bah, my bad. Sorry guys. Got a bit mixed up; what FC doesn't specify is the timescale for one game turn.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
MWests new ruling about keeping the same relative position contradicts 3C6d for no obvious reason.

Just a point of clarification: This is in no way a new ruling. In fact, it is one of the first rulings I ever made. (Right after explaining how ADDs worked.) And I haven't changed anything; I merely didn't interpret the rule as you do.

That is not to say the ruling doesn't suck. And it is not to stop the conversation. Just wanted to point out that it is not new, and it is not a "new rule".
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Brazouck
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I have a question about the same rule.

At the end of the 8th impulse, I have a Fed CA in a hex, facing C, two hex ahead is a Klingon D7 also facing C, so the fed is in the 6o'clock of the Klingon.

Start of the next turn, the fed CA goes speed 8, and the D7 goes 8 in reverse.
So at the 4th subpulse of the first impulse, the Fed move ine the hex between the two ships (worse turn mode), and the klingon goes in reverse in the same Hex.
What weapons can shoot and in what shield ?

The way I have play it :
The Fed CA shoot with all weapons at range 0 in the #4 shield of the D7.
The D7 shoot with all weapons in shield #1 of the CA.

Am I right ? I play solo with First Mission rules.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brazouck wrote:
Hi,

I have a question about the same rule.

At the end of the 8th impulse, I have a Fed CA in a hex, facing C, two hex ahead is a Klingon D7 also facing C, so the fed is in the 6o'clock of the Klingon.

Start of the next turn, the fed CA goes speed 8, and the D7 goes 8 in reverse.
So at the 4th subpulse of the first impulse, the Fed move ine the hex between the two ships (worse turn mode), and the klingon goes in reverse in the same Hex.
What weapons can shoot and in what shield ?

The way I have play it :
The Fed CA shoot with all weapons at range 0 in the #4 shield of the D7.
The D7 shoot with all weapons in shield #1 of the CA.

Am I right ? I play solo with First Mission rules.

You are correct in which shields are hit, but very limited in some of the firing arcs.
Remeber that even in the same hex, weapons have firing arcs.\
The Federation ship will be fring atthe D7s #4 shield, but the D7 will still in the Fed CAs forward arc, so only those weapons capable of firing into the forward arc have a valid target.
The D7 is in even worse shape. He can fire at the #1 shield of the Fed CA at range 0; but since the CA is in his rear arc, only weapons capable of firing into the rear arc can fire... so no Disruptors!
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Brazouck
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, i'v plaed it bad and the D7 has destroy the CA, in fact, it should have done very little damage.

Thanks, First Missions are a bit unclear about that.

Where is the postman with my copy of fedcom ???
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:

Just a point of clarification: This is in no way a new ruling. In fact, it is one of the first rulings I ever made. (Right after explaining how ADDs worked.) And I haven't changed anything; I merely didn't interpret the rule as you do.

That is not to say the ruling doesn't suck. And it is not to stop the conversation. Just wanted to point out that it is not new, and it is not a "new rule".


Fair point, it might not be a new ruling by you, it was the first time I had seen it - Even though I was posting on the other thread I must have missed your comment saying this in the bits I copied over earlier into this thread (or I would have said something then).


So I'd be interested to understand how you came to your ruling, certainly from my perspective the same hex shield facing rule is very simple (unlike weapon arcs). The rule has 1 condition (are you in the same hex) and 1 action to perform (move the last ship to its previous hex) before working out shield facing as normal from that position.

Given we can (or no one seems to indicate to the contrary) work out shield facing under normal circumstances, I can't personally see how you can arrive at your conclusion. You have already confirmed previusly (in the same previous thread) that 'same time' does not apply to ships moving same impulse in different order, which is the one thing I could see leading to your ruling.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I see it, when you have for example the Federation CA moving and then the F5 moving, this is just a kludge and doesn't represent what's "really happening". They really are "moving at the same time". If they start in the same hex and finish in the same hex, they're obviously moving on parallel courses. Like two cars travelling on the highway, side by side. The relative maneuverability of the two cars makes no difference if you aren't changing speed or changing lanes. If you want to get behind the car in the other lane, you'll need to slow down to let him get ahead then change lanes to get directly behind him. If the F5 wants to get on the CA's #4, he has the option to decelerate or sideslip, slowing to let the CA get in front of him. His superior Turn Mode (or speed, as the case may be) lets him see where the CA is going and gives him the opportunity to get on the CA's six o'clock.

Edit: Note that this creates exactly the same situation as two ships moving on parallel courses which are NOT in the same hex. E.g. Ship A and Ship B are in adjacent hexes and facing in the same direction. Ship A has a worse turn mode than ship B and moves one hex directly forward. Ship B then also moves one hex directly forward. The relative shield facings have not changed. So to my mind, Mike West's ruling is perfectly consistent with the rules as they apply to ships not in the same hex.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
The way I see it, ...


We are not talking about 'reality', we are talking about game rules, fairly simple rules at that. On a reality point of view we could dispense with all sorts of rules in order to do what is 'realistic'. In reality I could be moving in 3 dimension, with roll, pitch and yaw to ensure that all weapons can be brought to bear no matter what fire arcs look like from top down, but we dispense with that and stick with the rules as written.

Neither are we even on a parallel course particuarly, we are just confined in our movement by hexes and the unrealistic movement that it imposes, but happens to make gaming easier. Go back to my earlier example, the 2 ships are clearly not on a parallel course, but the mechanics of side slip means they noth move into the same hex when they are probably in 'reality' swinging past each other on shallow turns and/or yaw, with the fed going from the klinks front right to his left rear.
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pmiller13
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We are not talking about 'reality'


But the whole point is to use reality as often as possible, especially where the engineering supports the idea.

Quote:
Neither are we even on a parallel course particuarly


They are in fact on parallel courses or they would not be continuing to enter the same hexes move after move. That is the point of maintaining the relative positions. If they were not on parallel courses they would not be in the same hex on the next move of both ships.
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