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Same-hex shield facings
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Kang
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:19 pm    Post subject: Same-hex shield facings Reply with quote

This is more of a question about what happens the impulses after two ships have entered the same hex. Let's say I have a Klingon F5 frigate which has just entered the same hex as a Fed BC. Both ships are facing A, and the frigate sideslipped left into the hex, from the hex off the BC's #3 shield.

Both ships are moving at the same speed.

Next impulse, therefore, the BC and F5 are scheduled to move at the same time, but the BC moves first because the F5 has a better turn mode. So, the BC moves one hex dead ahead, and the F5 follows it into the same hex again. Is the F5 still off the BC's #3 shield now? And I presume the relative fire arcs have not changed, either? Is it true that, as long as they stay in the same hex, and they continue to move at the same time, they will always maintain the same relative facing/arcs?

Many questions....
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They don't move together, the F5 moved after the BC so no they do not stay with the same arcs (except by coincidence), you have to reasses the arcs after each move.

The only time they will stay the same (that I can think if) is where they do actually move together - as in they have the same speed and same turn mode and simultaneous movment takes place.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with 'elf.

If we were playing this situation out, we'd reassess the arcs after each movement phase.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough, thanks guys. Tony, this does have a bearing on that scenario design I sent you....
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Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3C6d says:

Quote:
In the event that the firing ship and the target ship are in the same hex, resolve the question of "which shield was hit" from the position occupied by the last ship to enter the hex on the sub-pulse before it entered that hex. (If both entered at the same time, judge them from these previous hexes.)


So, in the example case given, the F5's #6 would've been facing the BC's #3 as it slipped into the BC's hex initially. Then the BC moves forward in direction A before the F5 moves forward in direction A in the same sub-pulse because of the F5's better turn mode.

The question becomes: Is the BC now facing the F5's #1 (i.e. is it "in front of" the F5?) and the F5 now facing the BC's #4 (i.e. is it "behind" the BC?)?

The question of "which shield was hit" is supposed to be determined by the position of the last ship to enter the hex on the sub-pulse before it entered that hex. This seems to mean that since the F5 entered the hex last, the shield facings have to be determined by the ship positions from the previous sub-pulse. In the previous sub-pulse the F5 was off of the BC's #3 shield and the BC was off the F5's #6 shield.

According to the rule, why would those shield facings change?

Are you guys judging the shield facings from the fact that since the F5 moved into the BC's hex last, it must now be off the BC's #4 shield and the BC must now be off the F5's #1 shield?

Somehow I think this has been discussed before and was found to be incorrect.

The rule doesn't say anything about shield facings changing based on which ship enters a hex first or last during a sub-pulse. It seems to say that shield facings should be based on the relative positions the ships had before they entered the same hex.

On the other hand, what if both ships had fulfilled their turn modes and both decelerated during a sub-pulse in which they were supposed to move and instead of moving, they both decided to turn a hexside in that same hex? Say the BC turned toward direction F and the F5 turned toward direction B. Would their relative shield facings be different?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike is correct that this has been discussed before. I had to do some digging through the topics to find the last time this was discussed. It even refers to another topic that has since been lost. (Note that there is another whole component of the discussion. I am just referring to the shield facing/positioning issue.)

When two ships enter the same hex, their relative positions are set and stay that way as long as they occupy the same hex. If they both move into another hex in the next sub-pulse, the relative positions will be maintained. (The above thread has some examples.) To get new relative positions, the ships must spend at least one sub-pulse in different hexes.

Now, note that I am saying their "relative positions" do not change. This is different than "shield facing". If Ship A is in direction F from Ship B in the same hex, and Ship A turns while remaining in the same hex as Ship B, the facing shield will change, but Ship A will still be in direction F from Ship B.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact it was I who started the earlier, now lost, thread (it is cited in one of my postings in the thread Mike West references,) which was why I re-asked the question.

The thing I remembered was that bit about if they both move together (i.e. in the same sub-pulse) then their relative positions are unchanged.

MJW, is there any way of recovering the original post from 2007, or is it gone forever? I have tried the Internet Archive with no joy.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Mike wrote:
Does the order in which the ships move into a new hex from a hex they both occupied make any difference?


Very much so.

Quote:
Quote:
Suppose ship A and ship B enter the same hex. Regardless of which shields fire would come through, the ships have a position relative to one another while they are in that hex.

More complicated example: Suppose ship A is moving faster than ship B and catches up to ship B and moves into the same hex with it by the end of an Impulse. Now ship A would be "behind" ship B.


If I followed that correctly, yes. Since Ship A is faster, it enters the hex last. That means it's last hex is the one used to determine the relative positions and shield facing.

Quote:
Quote:
For whatever reasons, ship A moves into the next hex straight ahead before ship B, then ship B moves into that same hex. If that continues through that Impulse so that both ships are in another hex again, would ship A's relative position be in front of ship B?


As long as the ships' movement from sub-pulse to sub-pulse keeps them in the same hex, they will maintain the same relative positions. If, at any point in the movement for the impulse, they spend at least one sub-pulse in separate hexes, then the relative positions are determined from that point.



MWest:

This is the post I think you were referring to. The post replied to was asking what happened when ships already occupy the same hex. But your answer appears rather contradictory, or we are interpreting the initial question differently.

You first say move order very much makes a difference.

Then you say the ship that moves last as they enter a new hex determines position.

Then you say it doesn't matter, they always maintain the same position until they spend at least a subpulse apart.

Which is it - order of movement per new hex or position at the first hex entered.


Lets have an example.

Its Impulse 8 subpulse 4 in my Fed Ca vs a Klink scumbag who is 2 hexes away on my split 6/1 shield boudary. I am on his 1/2 boundary. We are both speed 16. Because of his turn mode I go first and move ahead. he then moves ahead into the same hex. Easy enough. I am in front of him on his shield 1 firing my L/LF weapons, he is on my 6 shield centerlining me. Next impulse of new turn we both declare 16 again, but I accerlerate on impulse 1 so that I move last. Subpulse 2 the klink side slips to his left, I side slip to my right, we are now in the same hex again, but what are our positions?

Your response above both says that the last ship to enter the next hex determines position (as normal) in which case I have got on to the Klinks shield 3 with my R/RF weapons in arc (all photons), on the the other hand you also say that the position remains the same as before as we have not yet spent a subpulse in seperate hexes, in which case I am still centerlined by the klink.


Last edited by storeylf on Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:32 am; edited 3 times in total
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
3C6d says:

Quote:
In the event that the firing ship and the target ship are in the same hex, resolve the question of "which shield was hit" from the position occupied by the last ship to enter the hex on the sub-pulse before it entered that hex. (If both entered at the same time, judge them from these previous hexes.)



The rule doesn't say anything about shield facings changing based on which ship enters a hex first or last during a sub-pulse. It seems to say that shield facings should be based on the relative positions the ships had before they entered the same hex.


It certainly doesn't say relative positions of the ships before they entered the hex. It say the position occupied by the last ship to enter the hex.

The position occupied by the last ship to enter the hex was (in the OP) the hex behind the other ship. There are no references to position being relative to any other object, ships "occupy" hexes, the only realistic interpretation is that we are talking the hex of the singular ship being mentioned (the last ship). The bracketed part dealing with simultaneous moves also seems to make it clear that position is referring to hexes not relative positions. So under 3C6d as written (if not intended), shield facing is determined as though the F5 was in the hex behind the BC.

To quote MWest again from the other thread.

Quote:

Ship A enters Ship B's hex by moving straight forward. To determine the shield facing in this case, rule (3C6d) says to move the last ship to move (Ship A) to its previous position, and use those shield facings.


Note ship B stays where it is, there is no reference at all to relative positions between the ships in prior sub-pulses, you are comparing the hex that ship A was in on the previous sub-pulse to the hex where the other ship is now.

As I just posted previous though it appears even Mwest has got confused, or is really confusing me. Glad to know the rules are so clear.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know I'll probably get rapped for suggesting these possible solutions to this question about shield facings in the same hex, but I think they are worth considering...

Possible Option #1:
Put next to the main map a small mat with 7 hexes on it...one central hex and the 6 surrounding hexes. Use extra counters to show where the ships were before they began occupying the same hex on the main map. This would include their shield facings. If shield facings are to be determined by how they were before the ships occupied the same hex, this would be a graphic reminder of those facings. You have to admit that once two ships occupy a single map hex, crafty movement tactics by the player with the faster ship with a better turn mode can force that position to remain that way for several sub-pulses, if not entire impulses. Once that begins to happen it can be very difficult to remember the shield facings the ships had before they got into that situation.

Possible Option #2:
Simplify the whole thing by allowing any ships in the same hex to fire every weapon they have at each other. Allow a ship receiving fire to take individual volleys on any shield it desires. Use a hand-wavium explanation of how this simulates a 3D effect on close-quarter combat. It may not be "fair" or make perfect sense, but it certainly would be the easiest possible solution to a question that recurs again and again.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ships entering the hex at the 'same time', as per your example. By 'same time' do we mean same impulse or do we take into account the exact order of movement. From your example it sounds like same impulse as ships always move in some order but you still say they enter at the same time. I'm sure that when we've done this we have gone on move order- so if a speed 16 ship enters a hex then a speed 24 hex enters the hex in the same impulse it is the position of the ships as the speed 24 ship enters the hex, not before the speed 16 ship enters the hex.


It means by sub-pulse, not impulse. But, order of movement does matter.



I thought I had asked what 'same time' meant before as well, as per Mwests reply same time does not include 2 ships with a different move order.

I therefore cannot see how you can ever get into the position MWest is now suggesting (apart from true simultaneous moves). Under 3C6d each time you come to fire in the same hex you move the last ship to enter that hex into its previous hex as described (and confirmed by MWest in the other thread) and determine shield facing as though the ships were in those hexes.


The issue seems to be around this new unwritten rule that has crept in, which contradicts the existing rule. Given the existing rule works for both ships in the same hex for the first time and ships in the same hex continuing to move into the same hex I can't see why this other suggestion is needed. Only where you have simultaneous moves do you need MWests new rule.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
Put next to the main map a small mat with 7 hexes on it...one central hex and the 6 surrounding hexes. Use extra counters to show where the ships were before they began occupying the same hex on the main map. This would include their shield facings. If shield facings are to be determined by how they were before the ships occupied the same hex, this would be a graphic reminder of those facings.

I've got one. I must put it into use more often....

Mine's made of a leftover vinyl kitchen floor covering with a hex pattern on it, painted black and the hex pattern picked out in silver.

I have not yet been sad enough to flick silver paint droplets across it to simulate stars....

In fact, it's funny. This thread has gone in a very similar direction to the one MJW cites above. This would suggest to me that the confusion remains, at least in some minds, and could do with a sort of 'official' rules clarification, perhaps in the Communique. Some commentators say that there is no problem, and that it's all crystal clear, but if that were the case then these questions would never be asked! It's clear in my mind because of MJW's ruling above (which is incidentally the same ruling as he has issued in the past) but to me it was not clear until it was actually stated.

Remember that people ask these questions here because they don't want to have the question unanswered in the heat of combat - or maybe even the question arose in the heat of combat!

Also please bear in mind that the question is not so much about what happens when the ships begin their cohabitation of the hex; it's about what happens after they both move out of the hex. It does not really help (and in fact it's the reason I had to ask the question) that my original topic has gone from the boards.

I tend to make pdf backups of all rules questions that interest me, nowadays, because of this. I use a bookmarklet at http://www.htm2pdf.co.uk/ to do this.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:

Also please bear in mind that the question is not so much about what happens when the ships begin their cohabitation of the hex; it's about what happens after they both move out of the hex. It does not really help (and in fact it's the reason I had to ask the question) that my original topic has gone from the boards.


Out of the same hex and into another same hex (I assume you mean).

But bear in mind that 3C6d covers that as well, it covers any situation where you need to know what shields and are in the same hex. Whether in the same hex before or not.

"In the event that the firing ship and the target ship are in the same hex,"

Are you in the same hex? answer = yes.

"resolve the question of "which shield was hit" from the position occupied by the last ship to enter the hex on the sub-pulse before it entered that hex."

Move the F5 back the last hex it was and look at the position from there. It is not relevant under 3C6d whether they were previuosly in a (different) same hex, the rule handily covers both.

It seems to be the new(er) ruling by MWest that is causing confusion, and even then there seems to be contradictions in what he has said. May be it was what was always intended, but it is not the rule in the rule book.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK... I actually don't see any contradiction in MJW's answers.

If two ships begin the movement sub-pulse in different hexes and end the sub-pulse in the same hex, then the movement of the last ship to move "matters, very much so" because it is that ship's movement which determines the relative direction of the two ships. E.g. you have a Federation heavy cruiser and a D7. In sub-pulse 3 of the turn, the two ships are one hex apart. On sub-pulse 4, the heavy cruiser moves and then the D7 moves into the heavy cruiser's hex. The hex the D7 moved FROM is used to determine the relative positions.

But if the two ships stay in the same hex while moving, the relative positions do not change.

Let's assume a Federation heavy cruiser is fighting a Romulan War Eagle. Both are moving at the same speed (16) and have the same Turn Mode. The War Eagle is cloaked and comes in to "underrun" (cloaked overrun) the heavy cruiser. The heavy cruiser is facing A. The WE is facing D. On sub-pulse #2, the heavy cruiser and WE both move forward and end the sub-pulse in the same hex as each other. Each is still directly in front of the other. The WE is in direction A of the heavy cruiser, and the heavy cruiser is in direction D of the WE. On sub-pulse #4, both ships move (simultaneously in this case). The heavy cruiser's captain wants to be in the same hex as the War Eagle and "depth charge" it with his phasers. The heavy cruiser chooses to use a high energy turn to turn to direction D, the same facing as the War Eagle. It then moves straight ahead. Since the two ships started the sub-pulse in the same hex and finished the sub-pulse in the same hex, they still have the same relative facings! The WE is still in direction A of the heavy cruiser, and is now facing the #4 shield. So during the Offensive Fire Phase, only the heavy cruiser's rear firing phasers can fire at the War Eagle! The heavy cruiser's captain should have decelerated (to make sure he and the War Eagle were not in the same hex) then accelerated on the next Impulse to catch up for the Range zero shot.

Even if the Federation ship had a better turn mode than the War Eagle, the situation would be the same: the two ships began and ended the sub-pulse in the same hex as each other, and their relative positions therefore did not change.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent summation of that situation. That seems to be exactly what the rule intends.

I, too, saw no contradiction from MWest in his explanation. I don't understand why it was a problem.

I still think that something could be done to make single hex combat easier to figure out. FedCom has taken shortcuts and diverged from SFB in several other areas...why not in single hex combat as well? That is, if there is a simpler solution.

Oh, well...my two centi-credits' worth.
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