Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Range 0 fire arc coverage?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Steve Cole
Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 3051

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The insanity of "every weapon can fire every direction at range zero". Just crazy and not at all necessary. The rules easily cover that condition without any problems or confusion at all.
_________________
The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Steve Cole
Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 3051

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reviewed the topic and the rulebook. Nothing changes. The rules are explicit and clear and nothing is missing. Nothing needs to be added or clarified. The only confusion is somebody trying to confuse himself.

As for the tactical display, I don't really understand it.

either you're trying to create some new kind of rule where you divide a hex into smaller hexes to keep track of people in the same hex (we did that in SFB and it was such a horrid stupid mess we deleted the rule)

or you're just using it to keep track of the existing rule, and I just don't see how it would help or why it's needed.
_________________
The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1947
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:
As for the tactical display, I don't really understand it.

Fair point; please allow me to explain. All it is is a couple of large hexes where we can temporarily put counters, to more easily visualise the relative positions of the ships. It's simply a kind of in-house play aid that I use to illustrate the concept to newer players, but plays no part in any of the games involving veteran players.

As to the sub-division of hexes in SFB, I remember it clearly and also your comments at the time. Geez, that must be 20+ years ago if it's a day....

No way I'd try and do that. The players would just end up in the same sub-hex anyway.....
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4461
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
No way I'd try and do that. The players would just end up in the same sub-hex anyway.....


Then you'd just sub-divide the sub-hexes into sub-sub-hexes and keep playing! Twisted Evil
_________________


Scoutdad's minis photos here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1842

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Basically, you relative positions are always maintained. So, if, in the simple example, Ship B does an HET within the hex to directly face Ship A, it is rotated 60 degrees. Now Ship B has its #1 shield facing Ship A (instead of its #6). But, their relative positions have not changed. Therefore, Ship A's #1 shield is still facing Ship B.

So, a ship's facing can change as it does HETs (or TACs or "turns in place" using decelerations). However, their relative positions never change until the ships stop being in the same hex.


I've tried getting to grips with what you are saying for a couple of days now, and still don't quite understand it. I think you meant to say something different to what you did.

If your relative positions never change then ship B would still have its shield 6 facing ship A and not shield 1. Relatively ship A was on the 6 shield so he must still be in order for the relative position to be the same. However, that would mean that ship B must also have turned, otherwise B is no longer in the same relative postion to him. In other words the statement cannot logically be correct when looked at from the perspective of both ships (and you talk in the plural 'positions', so I assume you meant both ships were each a reference point), which begs the question, relative to what? - A, B or some other objects? Or did you really mean the absolute positions have not changed, just that B has turned to face another direction.

The easiest way I'm seeing of working this out is what facing do you use when you move the ships back a hex to work out the shields. Do you move the ships to the hex and facing they had at the point they first moved into the hex, or do you move them to the hex they were in with the facing they now have. If the answer can be phrased like that then there isn't much reason for talk about relative positions etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1842

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:
Nothing changes. The rules are explicit and clear and nothing is missing. Nothing needs to be added or clarified.


Given the evidence to the contrary - i.e. people asking questions, that sounds more like a writer who obviously knows what he meant, and knows what implications he meant to be derived from it, but being unable to see it from the perspective of someone else trying to learn the game or even experienced players trying to figure out some corner case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1947
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
Kang wrote:
No way I'd try and do that. The players would just end up in the same sub-hex anyway.....


Then you'd just sub-divide the sub-hexes into sub-sub-hexes and keep playing! Twisted Evil

<snaps fingers> Dang! Why didn't I think of that?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
djdood
Fleet Captain


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2922
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storyelf - I drew out the examples Mike West gave on hex-map paper and it all clicked for me. These types of things are inherently visual and trying to describe it in a narrative form is always difficult.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3472
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
The easiest way I'm seeing of working this out is what facing do you use when you move the ships back a hex to work out the shields. Do you move the ships to the hex and facing they had at the point they first moved into the hex, or do you move them to the hex they were in with the facing they now have. If the answer can be phrased like that then there isn't much reason for talk about relative positions etc.


It is the second. You move the ship back to the hex it was in prior to entering the same hex, but leaving its facing as it currently is.

By "relative position" I mean based on the position of the ships to each other, and not their current shield facing. So, if two ships are stationary, and one ship performs an HET, that ship's shield facing changes, but its relative position does not.

But, the reason I shied away from using that first description is because it breaks down if both ships, moving the same speed, move to a new hex. At that point, the "previous hex" becomes relative, too. However, the description of "relative position" still has meaning regardless of how far the two ships move while sharing the same hex.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the order in which the ships move into a new hex from a hex they both occupied make any difference?

Suppose ship A and ship B enter the same hex. Regardless of which shields fire would come through, the ships have a position relative to one another while they are in that hex.

More complicated example: Suppose ship A is moving faster than ship B and catches up to ship B and moves into the same hex with it by the end of an Impulse. Now ship A would be "behind" ship B.

For whatever reasons, ship A moves into the next hex straight ahead before ship B, then ship B moves into that same hex. If that continues through that Impulse so that both ships are in another hex again, would ship A's relative position be in front of ship B?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the "tactical display" with a few hexes (or a large single hex) and duplicate counters off to the side, it might be helpful in certain situations. Ships may move into the same hex in various ways (straight, by sideslip, or in reverse). Having a small display off to the side showing the ships' relative positions might be helpful for some to keep these relative positions and facings in mind. That's all there is to it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1842

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
By "relative position" I mean based on the position of the ships to each other, and not their current shield facing. So, if two ships are stationary, and one ship performs an HET, that ship's shield facing changes, but its relative position does not.

But, the reason I shied away from using that first description is because it breaks down if both ships, moving the same speed, move to a new hex. At that point, the "previous hex" becomes relative, too. However, the description of "relative position" still has meaning regardless of how far the two ships move while sharing the same hex.


I think we are seeing relative position as meaning different things, to me it is the angle from my heading that my opponent is at.

Analagous I suppose to describing a dogfight, the well known o'clock postions is describing relative positioning, If the other guy is on your 6 and you turn right 90 degrees (with no forward movement) then he is now at 3. My turn changed his relative position to me. But my position relative to him has not changed, I was in front of him and still am - just facing another way. When just 1 of the 2 opponents turns and neither actually moves then 1 of the relative positions must change.

[edit] and going back to why this came up in a game, the turning vessel was wanting to bring more weapons to bear. Whilst it was clear the targets shield hadn't changed, it was less clear from the rules whether the turn counted as changing my (or not actually my ship in the actual game it happened) shield, and by implication,weapon arcs to the target. From your last reply it would, as we would move back to the previous hexes but using the new facing which gives me a new shield facing and weapons.


Last edited by storeylf on Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:23 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1947
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
Does the order in which the ships move into a new hex from a hex they both occupied make any difference?

Suppose ship A and ship B enter the same hex. Regardless of which shields fire would come through, the ships have a position relative to one another while they are in that hex.

More complicated example: Suppose ship A is moving faster than ship B and catches up to ship B and moves into the same hex with it by the end of an Impulse. Now ship A would be "behind" ship B.

For whatever reasons, ship A moves into the next hex straight ahead before ship B, then ship B moves into that same hex. If that continues through that Impulse so that both ships are in another hex again, would ship A's relative position be in front of ship B?


Something like this was covered in another thread, here:

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=658

Enjoy Smile
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Kang
Fleet Captain


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1947
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
As for the "tactical display" with a few hexes (or a large single hex) and duplicate counters off to the side, it might be helpful in certain situations. Ships may move into the same hex in various ways (straight, by sideslip, or in reverse). Having a small display off to the side showing the ships' relative positions might be helpful for some to keep these relative positions and facings in mind. That's all there is to it.

That's exactly what it's for. And it has a respectable layer of dust on it too; we hardly ever use it Smile
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3472
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
Does the order in which the ships move into a new hex from a hex they both occupied make any difference?

Very much so.

Quote:
Suppose ship A and ship B enter the same hex. Regardless of which shields fire would come through, the ships have a position relative to one another while they are in that hex.

More complicated example: Suppose ship A is moving faster than ship B and catches up to ship B and moves into the same hex with it by the end of an Impulse. Now ship A would be "behind" ship B.

If I followed that correctly, yes. Since Ship A is faster, it enters the hex last. That means it's last hex is the one used to determine the relative positions and shield facing.

Quote:
For whatever reasons, ship A moves into the next hex straight ahead before ship B, then ship B moves into that same hex. If that continues through that Impulse so that both ships are in another hex again, would ship A's relative position be in front of ship B?

As long as the ships' movement from sub-pulse to sub-pulse keeps them in the same hex, they will maintain the same relative positions. If, at any point in the movement for the impulse, they spend at least one sub-pulse in separate hexes, then the relative positions are determined from that point.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group