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Federation Commander A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
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Steve Cole Site Admin
Joined: 11 Oct 2006 Posts: 3832
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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The insanity of "every weapon can fire every direction at range zero". Just crazy and not at all necessary. The rules easily cover that condition without any problems or confusion at all. _________________ The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander
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Steve Cole Site Admin
Joined: 11 Oct 2006 Posts: 3832
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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I reviewed the topic and the rulebook. Nothing changes. The rules are explicit and clear and nothing is missing. Nothing needs to be added or clarified. The only confusion is somebody trying to confuse himself.
As for the tactical display, I don't really understand it.
either you're trying to create some new kind of rule where you divide a hex into smaller hexes to keep track of people in the same hex (we did that in SFB and it was such a horrid stupid mess we deleted the rule)
or you're just using it to keep track of the existing rule, and I just don't see how it would help or why it's needed. _________________ The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander
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Kang Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007 Posts: 1976 Location: Devon, UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Steve Cole wrote: | As for the tactical display, I don't really understand it.
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Fair point; please allow me to explain. All it is is a couple of large hexes where we can temporarily put counters, to more easily visualise the relative positions of the ships. It's simply a kind of in-house play aid that I use to illustrate the concept to newer players, but plays no part in any of the games involving veteran players.
As to the sub-division of hexes in SFB, I remember it clearly and also your comments at the time. Geez, that must be 20+ years ago if it's a day....
No way I'd try and do that. The players would just end up in the same sub-hex anyway..... _________________
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Scoutdad Commodore
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 4754 Location: Middle Tennessee
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Kang wrote: | No way I'd try and do that. The players would just end up in the same sub-hex anyway..... |
Then you'd just sub-divide the sub-hexes into sub-sub-hexes and keep playing! _________________ Commander, Battlegroup Murfreesboro
Department Head, ACTASF |
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storeylf Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 1897
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Basically, you relative positions are always maintained. So, if, in the simple example, Ship B does an HET within the hex to directly face Ship A, it is rotated 60 degrees. Now Ship B has its #1 shield facing Ship A (instead of its #6). But, their relative positions have not changed. Therefore, Ship A's #1 shield is still facing Ship B.
So, a ship's facing can change as it does HETs (or TACs or "turns in place" using decelerations). However, their relative positions never change until the ships stop being in the same hex. |
I've tried getting to grips with what you are saying for a couple of days now, and still don't quite understand it. I think you meant to say something different to what you did.
If your relative positions never change then ship B would still have its shield 6 facing ship A and not shield 1. Relatively ship A was on the 6 shield so he must still be in order for the relative position to be the same. However, that would mean that ship B must also have turned, otherwise B is no longer in the same relative postion to him. In other words the statement cannot logically be correct when looked at from the perspective of both ships (and you talk in the plural 'positions', so I assume you meant both ships were each a reference point), which begs the question, relative to what? - A, B or some other objects? Or did you really mean the absolute positions have not changed, just that B has turned to face another direction.
The easiest way I'm seeing of working this out is what facing do you use when you move the ships back a hex to work out the shields. Do you move the ships to the hex and facing they had at the point they first moved into the hex, or do you move them to the hex they were in with the facing they now have. If the answer can be phrased like that then there isn't much reason for talk about relative positions etc. |
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storeylf Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 1897
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Steve Cole wrote: | Nothing changes. The rules are explicit and clear and nothing is missing. Nothing needs to be added or clarified. |
Given the evidence to the contrary - i.e. people asking questions, that sounds more like a writer who obviously knows what he meant, and knows what implications he meant to be derived from it, but being unable to see it from the perspective of someone else trying to learn the game or even experienced players trying to figure out some corner case. |
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Kang Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007 Posts: 1976 Location: Devon, UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Scoutdad wrote: | Kang wrote: | No way I'd try and do that. The players would just end up in the same sub-hex anyway..... |
Then you'd just sub-divide the sub-hexes into sub-sub-hexes and keep playing! |
<snaps fingers> Dang! Why didn't I think of that? _________________
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djdood Commodore
Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 3413 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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storyelf - I drew out the examples Mike West gave on hex-map paper and it all clicked for me. These types of things are inherently visual and trying to describe it in a narrative form is always difficult. _________________
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mjwest Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006 Posts: 4075 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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storeylf wrote: | The easiest way I'm seeing of working this out is what facing do you use when you move the ships back a hex to work out the shields. Do you move the ships to the hex and facing they had at the point they first moved into the hex, or do you move them to the hex they were in with the facing they now have. If the answer can be phrased like that then there isn't much reason for talk about relative positions etc. |
It is the second. You move the ship back to the hex it was in prior to entering the same hex, but leaving its facing as it currently is.
By "relative position" I mean based on the position of the ships to each other, and not their current shield facing. So, if two ships are stationary, and one ship performs an HET, that ship's shield facing changes, but its relative position does not.
But, the reason I shied away from using that first description is because it breaks down if both ships, moving the same speed, move to a new hex. At that point, the "previous hex" becomes relative, too. However, the description of "relative position" still has meaning regardless of how far the two ships move while sharing the same hex. _________________
Federation Commander Answer Guy |
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Mike Fleet Captain
Joined: 07 May 2007 Posts: 1675 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Does the order in which the ships move into a new hex from a hex they both occupied make any difference?
Suppose ship A and ship B enter the same hex. Regardless of which shields fire would come through, the ships have a position relative to one another while they are in that hex.
More complicated example: Suppose ship A is moving faster than ship B and catches up to ship B and moves into the same hex with it by the end of an Impulse. Now ship A would be "behind" ship B.
For whatever reasons, ship A moves into the next hex straight ahead before ship B, then ship B moves into that same hex. If that continues through that Impulse so that both ships are in another hex again, would ship A's relative position be in front of ship B? |
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Mike Fleet Captain
Joined: 07 May 2007 Posts: 1675 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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As for the "tactical display" with a few hexes (or a large single hex) and duplicate counters off to the side, it might be helpful in certain situations. Ships may move into the same hex in various ways (straight, by sideslip, or in reverse). Having a small display off to the side showing the ships' relative positions might be helpful for some to keep these relative positions and facings in mind. That's all there is to it. |
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storeylf Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 1897
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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mjwest wrote: | By "relative position" I mean based on the position of the ships to each other, and not their current shield facing. So, if two ships are stationary, and one ship performs an HET, that ship's shield facing changes, but its relative position does not.
But, the reason I shied away from using that first description is because it breaks down if both ships, moving the same speed, move to a new hex. At that point, the "previous hex" becomes relative, too. However, the description of "relative position" still has meaning regardless of how far the two ships move while sharing the same hex. |
I think we are seeing relative position as meaning different things, to me it is the angle from my heading that my opponent is at.
Analagous I suppose to describing a dogfight, the well known o'clock postions is describing relative positioning, If the other guy is on your 6 and you turn right 90 degrees (with no forward movement) then he is now at 3. My turn changed his relative position to me. But my position relative to him has not changed, I was in front of him and still am - just facing another way. When just 1 of the 2 opponents turns and neither actually moves then 1 of the relative positions must change.
[edit] and going back to why this came up in a game, the turning vessel was wanting to bring more weapons to bear. Whilst it was clear the targets shield hadn't changed, it was less clear from the rules whether the turn counted as changing my (or not actually my ship in the actual game it happened) shield, and by implication,weapon arcs to the target. From your last reply it would, as we would move back to the previous hexes but using the new facing which gives me a new shield facing and weapons.
Last edited by storeylf on Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:23 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Kang Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007 Posts: 1976 Location: Devon, UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Mike wrote: | Does the order in which the ships move into a new hex from a hex they both occupied make any difference?
Suppose ship A and ship B enter the same hex. Regardless of which shields fire would come through, the ships have a position relative to one another while they are in that hex.
More complicated example: Suppose ship A is moving faster than ship B and catches up to ship B and moves into the same hex with it by the end of an Impulse. Now ship A would be "behind" ship B.
For whatever reasons, ship A moves into the next hex straight ahead before ship B, then ship B moves into that same hex. If that continues through that Impulse so that both ships are in another hex again, would ship A's relative position be in front of ship B? |
Something like this was covered in another thread, here:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=658
Enjoy _________________
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Kang Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007 Posts: 1976 Location: Devon, UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Mike wrote: | As for the "tactical display" with a few hexes (or a large single hex) and duplicate counters off to the side, it might be helpful in certain situations. Ships may move into the same hex in various ways (straight, by sideslip, or in reverse). Having a small display off to the side showing the ships' relative positions might be helpful for some to keep these relative positions and facings in mind. That's all there is to it. |
That's exactly what it's for. And it has a respectable layer of dust on it too; we hardly ever use it _________________
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mjwest Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006 Posts: 4075 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Mike wrote: | Does the order in which the ships move into a new hex from a hex they both occupied make any difference? |
Very much so.
Quote: | Suppose ship A and ship B enter the same hex. Regardless of which shields fire would come through, the ships have a position relative to one another while they are in that hex.
More complicated example: Suppose ship A is moving faster than ship B and catches up to ship B and moves into the same hex with it by the end of an Impulse. Now ship A would be "behind" ship B. |
If I followed that correctly, yes. Since Ship A is faster, it enters the hex last. That means it's last hex is the one used to determine the relative positions and shield facing.
Quote: | For whatever reasons, ship A moves into the next hex straight ahead before ship B, then ship B moves into that same hex. If that continues through that Impulse so that both ships are in another hex again, would ship A's relative position be in front of ship B? |
As long as the ships' movement from sub-pulse to sub-pulse keeps them in the same hex, they will maintain the same relative positions. If, at any point in the movement for the impulse, they spend at least one sub-pulse in separate hexes, then the relative positions are determined from that point. _________________
Federation Commander Answer Guy |
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