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HappyDaze
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 79
Location: Orlando, FL
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 Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:55 am Post subject: Tractor Train |
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| If ship A tractors ship B, the rules are clear that ship A cannot tractor another ship. However, can ship B tractor ship C at the same time? How is movement calculated when multiple ships are in a tractor train? Where can I find these answers in the rules? |
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Mike
Fleet Captain
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1675
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Part of 5D6b says:
| Quote: | | No ship can tractor more than one ship at the same time and must release one tractor link (losing all of the energy in it) to tractor another ship. |
I suspect that this is going to be interpreted (or changed) to say that "No ship can be tractored to more than one ship at the same time..."
Your "tractor chain" situation is a great question, but it seems as if it will be too big a can of worms for the guiding principle of "simplicity" that FC strives to achieve. Since the rules for tractors have had to undergo additions and clarifications, it doesn't seem likely that "tractor chains" would be allowed.
In addition, you would have to consider whether the "tractor chain" was between friendly ships, enemy ships, or a combination of both.
If "tractor chaining" is to be allowed, one quick and easy fix would be to cancel all movement for all the tractored ships without regard to how much energy was used for movement. Of course, that would mean that an ultra-light frigate with a tractor beam could stop the movement of a DN or BB that had tractored another ship.
I'm certainly not the answer guy, but that is my two cents worth.
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Kang
Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1976
Location: Devon, UK
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4074
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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No daisy chains. Rule (5D5c) (added in the Rev 5 rulebook) is supposed to address this issue. Basically, if a daisy chain is attempted, a tractor auction is held and the winner (or existing in the case of a tie) remains. The other tractor fails.
The reason is because it would take another page of rules (at least) to handle chains. It was decided that it is easier to just prevent them instead.
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Reading that linked thread an interesting situation occurs in the breaking someone else's tractor by tractoring situation. Consider:
Ship A holds Ship B in a 5 point tractor.
Ship C comes along and tractors Ship A with 6 points of power, starting an auction to gain hold of A and break the link to B.
Obviously if Ship A puts more power into the tractor to B there is a power auction until one wins.
Can Ship A choose instead to put power into negative tractor if that will end up being tactically better (i.e. he was planning to drop the link to B next impulse anyhow)? And thus the value C has to beat would become the sum of his negative tractor and his current link to B? |
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4074
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Ship C (in your example) cannot use negative tractor, as negative tractor only applies to tractor attempts directly to your ship. Think of it as some kind of "energized hull" or something like that. (Remember, negative tractor does not require the use of a tractor.)
That said, the idea of Ship C establishing a tractor to Ship B to break Ship A's tractor to Ship B is completely valid and an acceptable tactic. (I have seen it written up, though I don't know if it has been published yet.) Ship C does not need to maintain the tractor if it wins the auction, either.
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| mjwest wrote: | | Ship C (in your example) cannot use negative tractor, as negative tractor only applies to tractor attempts directly to your ship. Think of it as some kind of "energized hull" or something like that. (Remember, negative tractor does not require the use of a tractor.) |
This isn't what I was saying, sorry for the confusion. Ship A was the one potentially using negative tractor.
Ship A --5--> Ship B
(A holds B in a 5 point tractor)
Ship C --6--> Ship A --5--> Ship B
(C starts a 6 point tractor on A)
This starts an auction.
Lets say Ship C has no more power so it's all in the decision Ship A makes here and now.
Ship A's options in the auction:
Spend nothing, Result:
- Ship C now holds A in 6 point tractor
- Ship A's tractor is broken
- Ship A's tractor power is lost
Put 1 point of power in the tractor to B, Result:
- Both tractors break as they are equal in strength
- Both ships tractor power is lost
Put 2 points of power in the tractor to B, Result:
- Ship A holds B with a 7 point tractor
- Ship C's tractor never holds
- Ship C's tractor power lost
Put 1 point of power into negative tractor, Result:
- Both tractors are broken
- The negative tractor makes Ship C's tractor effectively strength 5 breaking both tractors for being equal strength
- Ship A has 1 point of negative tractor for the rest of the turn
- Both ships tractor power is lost
Put 2 power into negative tractor, Result:
- Ship A holds B in 5 point tractor
- The negative tractor makes Ship C's tractor effectively strength 4 which is lower than Ship A's tractor and thus doesn't hold
- Ship A has 2 points of negative tractor for the rest of the turn
- Ship C's tractor power is lost
Put 1 point in negative tractor, 1 point in tractor to B, Result:
- Ship A holds B in 6 point tractor
- The negative tractor makes Ship C's tractor effectively strength 5 which is lower than Ship A's tractor and thus doesn't hold
- Ship A has 1 point of negative tractor for the rest of the turn
- Ship C's tractor power is lost
Does this correctly summarize the options? |
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4074
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but this is just gonna have to wait until I get back. It will take more effort than I want to expend right now to check each of those out.
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Mike
Fleet Captain
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1675
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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This might make things easier:
| Quote: | | (5D5c) Tractoring Ships that are Using Tractors: If Ship A tractors Ship B which has already tractored Unit C, a tractor auction is held and only the stronger of the two beams survives. In this case, ignore negative tractor used by Unit C. Ship B could use negative tractor against Ship A or increase the strength of its tractor hold on Ship C with equal effect. Ship B wins any ties. |
from the revision 5 rules
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Mike
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Sandpaper gets the job done, but makes for a lot of friction. |
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike wrote: | This might make things easier:
| Quote: | | (5D5c) Tractoring Ships that are Using Tractors: If Ship A tractors Ship B which has already tractored Unit C, a tractor auction is held and only the stronger of the two beams survives. In this case, ignore negative tractor used by Unit C. Ship B could use negative tractor against Ship A or increase the strength of its tractor hold on Ship C with equal effect. Ship B wins any ties. |
from the revision 5 rules |
All of the examples should work then. Awesome. |
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HappyDaze
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 79
Location: Orlando, FL
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| My issue involved a Lyran DN tractoring an Orion BR. The intent was to keep the Orion close to ESG him next impulse. The ESG was not used on the impulse of the tractor because a Lyran DW was in the same hex as the Orion. Rather than try to fight the tractor of the power-heavy DN, the Orion decided to "me too" tractor the power-spent DW. How would this work out? |
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Mike
Fleet Captain
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1675
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:14 am Post subject: |
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So, are you saying the Lyran DN tractored the Orion BR and at the same time the Orion BR announced a tractor onto the Lyran DW?
MJWest wrote earlier...
| Quote: | | That said, the idea of Ship C establishing a tractor to Ship B to break Ship A's tractor to Ship B is completely valid and an acceptable tactic. |
This does not cover your situation.
Basically what you are saying is, "Can a ship tractor an energy-depleted ship (and use little energy in the process) to avoid being tractored by a third ship?"
I'm going to guess that since these tractors are applied simultaneously, the one with the greater amount of power is going to be the one that succeeds (but I'm not MJWest).
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Mike
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Sandpaper gets the job done, but makes for a lot of friction. |
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HappyDaze
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 79
Location: Orlando, FL
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:14 am Post subject: |
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No, he didn't want to break the tractor (well, he did, but that's not what he was expecting from his maneuver). He was trying to bring the Lyran DW along to ensure it soaked up half of the Lyran DN's ESG output.
If allowed, who would control the movement. Not including the DW, it would have been the DN pulling the BR around at speed 8. I suppose having another ship in could have loweredthe speed another category - to 0 a for the trio, but I'm still not sure it would have been legal. This was a major sticking point as a full ESG burst from the DN would have utterly destroyed the lightly damaged BR, while half of the output was quite survivable by the BR but would have killed the badly damaged Lyran DW. |
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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1386
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | This does not cover your situation.
Basically what you are saying is, "Can a ship tractor an energy-depleted ship (and use little energy in the process) to avoid being tractored by a third ship?"
I'm going to guess that since these tractors are applied simultaneously, the one with the greater amount of power is going to be the one that succeeds (but I'm not MJWest). |
Yep, that's how it works. The one with the greatest amount of power is going to be the one that succeeds.
| Quote: | | If allowed, who would control the movement. |
 It's to avoid this kind of question that makes it not allowed.
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| There are never three ships attached once everything is resolved. So who controls is always an easy question. |
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