Federation Commander

[storeylf]

It appears that ther are different views here on whether plasma needs a boost. Ignore that issue for the moment and look a another question I've posed earlier but got no response.

What is the benchmark for determining balance?

Phul has posted a fairly detailed account of how he beat someone he classes as reasonably competent being beaten by his previously described tactics, I've posted a rough description of 3 games where I beat someone I class as reasonably competent, The post Saved earlier quoted me from was an account of someone getting beaten by plasma. Cleary people are getting beaten by plasma. Are these people getting beaten to be discounted in determining balance simply because they are not up to the standard Saved puts himself at playing 2 or 3 games every weekend? They are not newbs, but just because they are not of the same material others hold themselves to be, are they irrelevant to such discussion?

Would it not be the case that if we boosted plasma to a point where even great players expected to lose 50% of the time to plasma that, in fact, we will leave the more common normal players complaining how overpowered it is?

So at what level of skill should we be biasing any discussion of determining balance?

[DirkSJ]

[DirkSJ]

[mjwest]

Fair warning:

We are rapidly approaching the point where no actual discussion is taking place anymore. Either new points need to be raised (or at least have old points explained differently), or I will lock this thread for at least a cooling off period.

The best thing that can be done is for the proponents for a change to start posting results of actual fights that demonstrate their points. Talking through hypothetical situations won't accomplish anything. It needs to be actual playtest reports demonstrating the issue. It is incumbent on those wanting a change to prove the point, not those desiring the status quo. If there is a "trick" to beating plasma, we need to see it shown in action.

Finally, please do not get mad when a given writeup is at least partially dismissed because of serious errors in the fight. In the last writeup the Lyran made at least two crippling errors that heavily influenced his loss. It is hard to draw conclusions from that.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy

[storeylf]

[DirkSJ]

[mojo jojo]

This is from memory since it was about 3 weeks ago. I was the Klingons vs Romulans. We rolled a D20 to randomly pick from among the 20 standard tournament fleets.

Romulans: 2 KE, BH, Snipe

Klingons: DWL, 2 D7.

Turn 1:

Romulans chose speed 8 and cloaked until impulse 8. The rules were a bit unclear, but we played that drones couldn't launch at a ship during the fade-in or fade-out period. Klingons chose speed 24. The Roms sent 1 KE along one board edge and another along the adjacent board edge. The BH and Snipe went through the center. The plan was for the Roms to surround me and hopefully make sure there was no avenue of retreat.

Klingons drove up the center. In impulse 8, the Snipe took minimal long range damage due to fade-out of cloak. No seeking weapons were launched for either side. All ships had full batteries.

Turn 2:

All Romulans chose speed 16. All Klingons chose speed 24. All torpedoes loaded, with the PL-Rs loaded as S in case he needs to hold the torp.

Klingons got within 8 of BH and Snipe and crippled them with 12 Disrupters and 12 PH1 (I don't remember the exact range or whether both were crippled or whether 1 was merely damaged). Return fire mostly downed a shield from the DWL and got 1 or 2 burnthrough. 6 Drones launched at a KE and BH and Snipe launched all torps at the DWL. This about impulse 3 or so. DWL and D7s have 7 pwr left.

KE's come in from the board edges and try to surround the squadron. Squadron turns away from the plasma and follows drone wave toward one of the KE. KE saves PH1 for drones and launches all Torps at the DWL at a range of 3-4. This was probably a mistake since he probably should've launched just the R at one of the D7s. This would've forced 2 ships to turn away instead of 1. Or perhaps bolted all torps. Instead, the DWL turns and runs away at 24+1 from all plasma. The 2 D7s chase the KE that shot its load and will probably kill it during reload. My opponent concedes.

1) This was probably not a perfectly played game. The KE made a serious mistake in launching all plasma at the DWL since it already had 3 Gs and 2 Fs chasing it. It probably should've launched the R at a D7. It also should've kept the 2 Fs back to keep the other D7s at bay. Despite this error, I feel it wasn't decisive. Eventually the DWL and D7 would've outrun the torps and turned back at the KE behind another wave of 6 drones. And 1 KE cannot stand up to 3 good Klingon ships, especially on a reload turn.

2) The spreading out of the Rom fleet is very debatable. It didn't achieve its goal of getting into position where plasma was unavoidable, although I'm not sure if it was because the plan was faulty or the execution. And it left the fleet vulnerable to piecemeal tactics. However, my opponent was trying something different. He thought if he kept his fleet together, I would come in and smash one ship and run away. With only 2 R, he couldn't keep me away forever. And I would've been very happy to keep at 15 hexes and keep firing away with Disrupters and PH1 if that's all my opponent would give me. Perhaps his most viable strategy would be to fire a PL-R and chase me behind it. Based on my playing, I don't think that would've worked either.

[mojo jojo]

[pinecone]

Gee whiz, I leave for just 5 hours and and another pages appears?

Oh Well, here's a good explination of my point:

[phul]

[mojo jojo]

[mjwest]

[terryoc]

[Savedfromwhat]

Storyelf, I don't care how good someone thinks they are, if there are holes in their strategy or their opponents strategy it reveals only that human beings make mistakes and sometimes get caught thinking inside the box. I believe that all the evidence we have seen of plasma being balanced is based on one strategy and that is waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. This is similair to chess in some ways. As to the question of balance, well I think we should be balancing based on perfect game versus perfect game and allowing die rolls to determine victory, but one mans perfect game is not anothers, that's why we have the game designer and answer man here to help point out any tactical errors we might commit, and of course each other.

As I am leading the charge for the affirmitive here, that plasma is underpowered or overcosted I believe the burden of proof is on that side to prove it. I will refrain from attempting to post any more about theory and what ifs and get down to the nitty gritty of acctually playing a few of these scenarios.

[storeylf]