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How would you deal with an ISC CS tournament fleet?
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:41 am    Post subject: How would you deal with an ISC CS tournament fleet? Reply with quote

The ISC tournament fleet of 2 CS, 2 FF at 446 pts seems extremely nasty with 4 PPDs. What is the 450 pt tournament fleet best suited to dealing with it? I think Kzinti with a huge drone wave might be successful, but I'm not sure.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Against a 2 CS, 2 FF fleet, my goal would be to pop the FFs without taking equivalent damage in return. So, either I cripple both FFs without getting crippled in return, or I destroy the FFs without having any of my ships get destroyed in return. That way I can win out on the points.

Another thought is that you need to keep the CSs moving fast. Those PPDs are extremely power intensive. If you can force them to move at base speed 24, their options are extremely limited.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a good thought, especially forcing the ISC into speed 24. The devil is in the details. Twisted Evil

4 PPDs average 41 damage to the facing shield and 14 to each adjacent shield at 15 hexes range. Combined with 20 PH1, you're looking at 30 or so internal hits at 15 hexes range to a cruiser size target! It gets worse at 10 hexes where the 4 PPD averages 60 damage to the facing shield and 15 to each adjacent shield.

This is how I forsee the outcome vs the various opponents:

Gorn and Romulans would be a cakewalk. The ISC doesn't even get close to the plasma fleet. They blast a ship at 15 hexes and toss 4 PL-F at a 2nd ship. If the Gorn/Rom stays at range, they lose. If they pursue, one ship has to eat the 4 F from the FF and 2 additional F from the CS rear plasmas.

Feds would be fairly simple. Just blast them at 15 hexes and generally use the same strategy as against a plasma race. They have to get close, so make a ship eat 6 PL-F in trying to pursue you. And one of their ships should already be in bad shape during the chase.

Disrupter ships seem better since a tournament fleet should have 12 or so disrupters. That averages 24 damage every turn or 48 every two turns at range 15 which doesn't seem too off in comparison to the 4 PPD. The trouble is that firing over 2 turns allows the ISC to spread the damage over separate shields whereas the ISC is going to be pounding 1 shield hard. If they do 30 internals on the 1st shot, there's no guarantee that the disrupter race will have all its weapons left for the next turn. The disrupter race would ideally like to get within range 8 to allow for overloads, but then they run into the problem of the PL-F being tossed their way. Kzinti have lots of drones to soak up ISC phasers, but fewer PH1 to be able to fire back at long range.

Hydran Fusion ships just die. They will never get close enough to have a firepower advantage before being blasted into wreckage from PPDs, phasers, and plasma F.

Hydran Hellbore ships are more interesting. They can potentially have 12 Hellbores in their fleet at the cost of no stingers. If they shoot all 12 at the same target, they'll average 35+35 damage at range 15, which is going to hurt the target ship. If they get the range to 8, they'll average 69+60 which should be able to seriously hurt a CS. The only problem is that the HB fleet has a serious shortage of PH-1 which puts them at a major disadvantage vs the 20 PH1 that the ISC fleet has. Still, they seem to be the best bets so far, except maybe Kzinti.

Orions shouldn't be any trouble. The stealth bonus is of minimal helpfulness vs the PPD, and their ships are generally fragile. They should lose a ship to the PPDs/Phasers before they get close, and then they have to deal with PL-F tossed their way if they try and get close.

Selts should be dealt with the same way as a disrupter race.

Vudars should be dealt with the same way as Feds. They're somewhat better at range 15, but not enough better to matter.

Andros might be trouble. They might be able to soak up enough damage to scream in at close range and blast one of the CS even after getting hit with PL-F.

With the disclaimer that I have not played the ISC yet, my initial impression is that only the Hydran HB fleet, Kzinti, and possibly Andros are competitive.
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DirkSJ
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
Andros might be trouble. They might be able to soak up enough damage to scream in at close range and blast one of the CS even after getting hit with PL-F.

Andros are an interesting quandry. Unlike some other fleets going 24/24+1 is almost never an issue for an andro; it doesn't cost them much if anything in guns or flexibility. This ensures plasma won't hit. On the other hand, the generally weak phaser suites mean they MUST run if they don't want to take the hit; they can't as easily shoot it down.

The PPD has an interesting effect on andros as well. You do first and second number to the facing panels and the third number to the other side. Given this, if you can keep a PPD always hot the andro can never drop a bank safely. If they do you use a PPD directed targeting on weapons and have a great chance to score a panel hit regardless of facing as long as you get 3+ pulses.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
That's a good thought, especially forcing the ISC into speed 24. The devil is in the details. Twisted Evil

4 PPDs average 41 damage to the facing shield and 14 to each adjacent shield at 15 hexes range. Combined with 20 PH1, you're looking at 30 or so internal hits at 15 hexes range to a cruiser size target!


Range 15 average damage of 4 PPDs and 20 PH1 vs:

+0 (standard) = 61
+1 (orion stealth) = 46
+2 (EM)= 35
+3 (Stealth + EM / Vudar IPG ) = 24

Orions and Vudar really don't look to bad. Even range 9 PPDs is survivable at that modifier, which leaves the ISC looking vulnerable to whatever is about to get fired their way at range 8 or below.

Whoever is attacking is going to take some pain closing, but after that the ISC are in an 'interesting' situation, 3 turn torps on the FF, and the PPDs with a 3 hex myopic are going to feel the heat against a pursuer.

Speed 24 and arming PPDs leaves a choice of phasers or accels but not much of both. A HET is also trading accels/phasers for the turn. If you go slower then you probably can't avoid those going faster reaching you.

Some do it better than others, a hydran pure fusion fleet (2 mohawk/ranger and 2 mongol) can afford to lose a ship or 2 whilst doing speed 24+ EM charging in, and still pose a deadly threat. Point blank PhGs and fusions + other phasers can slag that ISC fleet fast, Losing a couple of cheapo fusion ships on the way in (and that is being extremely pessimistic) is an acceptable loss.

There will be counters to that for the ISC - but I think you are being incredibly optimistic to discount a hydran fusion fleet so casually.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vudar can only do it once or twice and then the energy is gone. If they do it at the 1st fire opportunity, the ISC will simply take the 2nd.

Orions will at least get a down shield even if they use EM, and then they're sitting ducks for the 6 plasma Fs coming their way without even the ability to phaser the damage down. Scratch another ship. And then the pursuit turns will result in 2 additional plasma Fs per turn that are going to be eaten at full force. The ISC CS can keep up that pace for 4 turns. Since the pursuing ships are under EM according to your plan, and they'll be running *into* instead of away from plasma, they'll be eating 40 pts per turn. That'll result in a dead Orion force quickly enough.

For the Hydran fusion force, it's the same thing. 24+EM and charging means that 120 pts of plasma is going to hit on the 1st pursuit turn, and 40 per turn afterwards for the next 3. Combined with the first volley PPD and PH1 combo, that's going to be a very ragged Hydran force pretty shortly.

During pursuit turns, all the ISC has to do is to go 24, charge PPDs, and drop PL-F to the rear. They have enough energy to do this indefinitely until the PL-F runs out, and the fight shouldn't take that long. If the pursuers ever break off to avoid PL-F death, then that'll give the ISC time to get off another PPD blast and for the FF to reload their plasma.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
Vudar can only do it once or twice and then the energy is gone. If they do it at the 1st fire opportunity, the ISC will simply take the 2nd.

Orions will at least get a down shield even if they use EM, and then they're sitting ducks for the 6 plasma Fs coming their way without even the ability to phaser the damage down. Scratch another ship. And then the pursuit turns will result in 2 additional plasma Fs per turn that are going to be eaten at full force. The ISC CS can keep up that pace for 4 turns. Since the pursuing ships are under EM according to your plan, and they'll be running *into* instead of away from plasma, they'll be eating 40 pts per turn. That'll result in a dead Orion force quickly enough.


All I was pointing out there is that both races can shunt the modifiers to the point where the long range damage is heavily mitigated. Not necessarily what they would then go on to do. If they are happy with 8 shots then they don't need to pursue particularly.


Quote:

For the Hydran fusion force, it's the same thing. 24+EM and charging means that 120 pts of plasma is going to hit on the 1st pursuit turn, and 40 per turn afterwards for the next 3. Combined with the first volley PPD and PH1 combo, that's going to be a very ragged Hydran force pretty shortly.


Who said anything about eating 120 pts of plasma?

There are undoubtedly endless combinations of timings/ranges etc. The basic point is that the hydran can charge in and get ships close enough to hurt a lot.

If you shoot at long range as initially suggested then you just about take a shield down. The CS can't realistically launch Fs on that impulse, the FFs could, but that will stagger the first 6 Fs (4 from the FFs, then the other 2 when the CS turns). But what are you firing the Fs at? There are 4 ships incoming and the only damage so far is a downed shield.

What range will you wait till? You have to wait till range 8 to launch if you want to have any chance of a 1 impulse hit. The closer your launch the less pursuit is needed, the longer the launch the less avoiding they have to do. If you turn the CSs and leave the frigates to launch closer then you risk them getting trashed instead, leaving the 2nd PPD round of firing with the CSs on their own probably still facing 4 ships.

By the sounds of it the CSs are not going to be a major issue running away, they are either speed 16 or speed 24 (with no accels/HET left) and trying to pull round at turn mode 5. If you only fire plasma at 1 or 2 ships then those ships can move aside for a couple of impulses whilst the others close fairly quick. If you spread the Fs then you spread the damage to the point that even an impulse 2 hit aint that worrying given what is about to happen.

All the hydrans start with the power to do speed 32 and EM and still drop out of EM and fire PhGs and a couple of Ph1s. Even without fusions, just 2 ships will hit a CS for 50 odd internals at point range, a lot more internal damage to a CS than the hydrans will have taken. The following turn the Phasers and Fusions will effectively wipe both CSs, another F or 2 aint a big issue at that point.

Quote:

During pursuit turns, all the ISC has to do is to go 24, charge PPDs, and drop PL-F to the rear. They have enough energy to do this indefinitely until the PL-F runs out, and the fight shouldn't take that long. If the pursuers ever break off to avoid PL-F death, then that'll give the ISC time to get off another PPD blast and for the FF to reload their plasma.


You have the power to do that if you haven't been caught close up and taken power damage. 2 Fs doesn't remotely compare to what a couple of hydrans will do to the ISC at close range. He may have to slip it to an off shield, but gee wiz, if I'm about to wack a CS for 60-70 odd damage per ship (directed if desired) thats acceptable.

Even once the PPD is reloaded, it may not be that easy to get the shot if the hydrans are anywhere near close by. Assuming both sides are the same speed he still needs to start at least range 5 from what he wants to shoot in order to HET round on him and not be in the myopic zone. Once the hydran is close it is potentially very hard to ever get a PPD shot again. Turning round normally is asking to die before the PPDs even get in arc.


An awful lot will depend on timing, what impulse to start the attack, or turn away etc. They or may not win, but your dismissal of them is IMO naive. Don't underestimate the fusion ships, they can afford to lose an early ship (or even 2 given I would start with 4) because they will make it up very quick once they are on top of you. If they are on top of you then the myopic zone will make the PPD very hard to use again, certainly on your terms.


Last edited by storeylf on Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:08 am; edited 3 times in total
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hold on, isn't 2 CS, 2 FF illegal? You're not allowed more than two identical ships.

As for the Andromedans: Displacement devices. "Captain, the Andromedans have sent us a signal!"
"What does it say?"
"Sir, it says, 'I'm in your Myopic Zone, b****es!'"
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
Hold on, isn't 2 CS, 2 FF illegal? You're not allowed more than two identical ships.


Its legal, no more than 2 of a given type. 2 CA 2FF 2DD etc.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh. I think that anything with a PPD should be considered a leader for purposes of ISC squadrons. That's their function, leading an echelon.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This

terryoc wrote:
As for the Andromedans: Displacement devices. "Captain, the Andromedans have sent us a signal!"
"What does it say?"
"Sir, it says, 'I'm in your Myopic Zone, b****es!'"


Equals WIN. As in hilarious.

Also I think anything that keeps player options open is good, I say no artificial limitations in FC tournaments. (Not to say there aren't any that exist already otherwise you would see me with 3 CS's).
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:


All I was pointing out there is that both races can shunt the modifiers to the point where the long range damage is heavily mitigated. Not necessarily what they would then go on to do. If they are happy with 8 shots then they don't need to pursue particularly.


I think it's optimistic to expect a range 8 shot with either race.


storeylf wrote:
Who said anything about eating 120 pts of plasma?

There are undoubtedly endless combinations of timings/ranges etc. The basic point is that the hydran can charge in and get ships close enough to hurt a lot.

If you shoot at long range as initially suggested then you just about take a shield down. The CS can't realistically launch Fs on that impulse, the FFs could, but that will stagger the first 6 Fs (4 from the FFs, then the other 2 when the CS turns). But what are you firing the Fs at? There are 4 ships incoming and the only damage so far is a downed shield.

What range will you wait till? You have to wait till range 8 to launch if you want to have any chance of a 1 impulse hit. The closer your launch the less pursuit is needed, the longer the launch the less avoiding they have to do. If you turn the CSs and leave the frigates to launch closer then you risk them getting trashed instead, leaving the 2nd PPD round of firing with the CSs on their own probably still facing 4 ships.

By the sounds of it the CSs are not going to be a major issue running away, they are either speed 16 or speed 24 (with no accels/HET left) and trying to pull round at turn mode 5. If you only fire plasma at 1 or 2 ships then those ships can move aside for a couple of impulses whilst the others close fairly quick. If you spread the Fs then you spread the damage to the point that even an impulse 2 hit aint that worrying given what is about to happen.


Remember, the Hydrans have turn mode 5 as well. If as you suggest that the 1-2 ships that get plasma aimed at them move aside for a couple of impulses, then you get a line of strung out ships during the chase. Each Hydran ship that moves aside for a couple of impulses is going to be 8 hexes away given the speed of this chase. And most likely the closest Hydran ship will be the one with no shields. A bunch of strung out ships is going to be easily defeated in detail.

Another thing the ISC can do is to lead with the FF. They launch plasma at range 6-8 while the CS are further away. If the Hydrans don't drop EM at this range, it's 80 plasma to 1 ship. If they do drop EM, it's probably still 80 damage and now the PPD can hit hard. The Hydrans won't get a good shot unless it's 2 hexes or closer and the Frigates can turn or HET away before getting to this range.

storeylf wrote:

All the hydrans start with the power to do speed 32 and EM and still drop out of EM and fire PhGs and a couple of Ph1s. Even without fusions, just 2 ships will hit a CS for 50 odd internals at point range, a lot more internal damage to a CS than the hydrans will have taken. The following turn the Phasers and Fusions will effectively wipe both CSs, another F or 2 aint a big issue at that point.



That's assuming that they can get to point blank range. Rather unlikely since you're having ships drop off the chase each time they get plasma aimed at them. Besides, 32+EM costs 38 energy. These ships have 37 energy, so they're going to be dipping into battery power even if they don't use a single point of power anywhere else. If they've taken internals from the PL-F or the PPD/PH1 earlier, it's possible that they can't even maintain the pace.

storeylf wrote:

You have the power to do that if you haven't been caught close up and taken power damage. 2 Fs doesn't remotely compare to what a couple of hydrans will do to the ISC at close range. He may have to slip it to an off shield, but gee wiz, if I'm about to wack a CS for 60-70 odd damage per ship (directed if desired) thats acceptable.

Even once the PPD is reloaded, it may not be that easy to get the shot if the hydrans are anywhere near close by. Assuming both sides are the same speed he still needs to start at least range 5 from what he wants to shoot in order to HET round on him and not be in the myopic zone. Once the hydran is close it is potentially very hard to ever get a PPD shot again. Turning round normally is asking to die before the PPDs even get in arc.


The CS has 32+4 power. That is enough to move 30-32 and charge PPD without dipping into batteries. After PPDs are charged, then suddenly they have 4 discretionary power each turn. Each FF has 15+2 pwr. It costs them 8 to go speed 32, so they have plenty to reload plasmas with.

Once the PPDs and PL-F are reloaded, then they can HET and pick off the strung out Hydrans in detail. 20 PH1 should be able to wipe out 1 Hydran ship at close range and the PPDs should be able to take out the Hydran ship with the down shield. The 4 Plasma F on the frigates can be used to either finish off the lead ships or threaten the trailing ships.

If you instead kept the 4 ships together, then they would've taken heavy damage from the PL-F already and probably wouldn't be able to follow since at least some of their power would've been hit. Even if they did, you would have a bunch of ships with tissue paper shields facing 4 fresh ships with 20 PH1, 4 PL-F, and 4 PPD.


storeylf wrote:

An awful lot will depend on timing, what impulse to start the attack, or turn away etc. They or may not win, but your dismissal of them is IMO naive. Don't underestimate the fusion ships, they can afford to lose an early ship (or even 2 given I would start with 4) because they will make it up very quick once they are on top of you. If they are on top of you then the myopic zone will make the PPD very hard to use again, certainly on your terms.


I really don't think it's as easy to make up the ground as you seem to think, especially with the fact that the Hydrans are already dipping into battery power to chase. Either you're going to have a line of strung out ships, or some ships will take power hits, or most ships will have no shields when facing the ISC. None of those is a good situation for the Hydrans.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happens if you simply sacrifice a ship to get in the ISC's face? Hunter frigates are only 48 points each. "Holy moley, look at the size of those Stingers! What are they feeding them on?!"
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
storeylf wrote:


All I was pointing out there is that both races can shunt the modifiers to the point where the long range damage is heavily mitigated. Not necessarily what they would then go on to do. If they are happy with 8 shots then they don't need to pursue particularly.


I think it's optimistic to expect a range 8 shot with either race.


Why? what are the ISC going to do to stop it. If they move at speed then they can't really HET and accel (one or the other), turning at a slow enough turn mode makes it easy to close to 8 from a simple speed perspective. What would the ISC do to stop it, what range would they fire at before turning away? Would they burn their HET on that first turn? how long are you expecting to be able to run before the map edge becomes an issue?



Quote:
Remember, the Hydrans have turn mode 5 as well.


I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think 2 of the 4 ships would be turn mode 4. But importantly they are not the ones who will be trying to escape (turning round). The ISC are the ones who have an issue with turn modes in thi scenario. Running usually involves a hard turn which is giving up ground. I suppose there are other tactics, like just try and fly past them fast - that puts the hydran trying to turn round hard afterwards, but risks just giving the hydran a point blank shot anyway on the pass, which could well be effectively game over for the ISC.

Quote:
If as you suggest that the 1-2 ships that get plasma aimed at them move aside for a couple of impulses, then you get a line of strung out ships during the chase. Each Hydran ship that moves aside for a couple of impulses is going to be 8 hexes away given the speed of this chase. And most likely the closest Hydran ship will be the one with no shields. A bunch of strung out ships is going to be easily defeated in detail.


With plasma launched and PPDs/phasers fired, defeated in detail by what? 2 hydran ships signifcantly outshoot you at close range. The other 2 ships may be a bit further back, but if they're reasonably intact then the ISC don't have much chance, with 2 ships on their back and 2 ships a bit further behind the ISC have no manouver opportunities. The moment the ISC start to turn those ships further back will be on top of you. Remember you are talking tourney, that map edge will not allow the ISC to run much more than about half a turn from where they fired. If you do decide to try and 'defeat the hydran in detail' it appears you are effectively giving up on maintaining any range, as you will need all those ph1s. 20ph1s are nasty at close range, but not half as nasty as what the hydrans have. At range 1 the hydran force can potentially deliver something like 350 damage in a turn (possibly enough to destroy all 4 ISC ships, haven't checked but feels close?), If you haven't delivered decisive damage before hand (which doesn't look likely) then turning to try and face them off is a big gamble.


Quote:
Another thing the ISC can do is to lead with the FF. They launch plasma at range 6-8 while the CS are further away. If the Hydrans don't drop EM at this range, it's 80 plasma to 1 ship. If they do drop EM, it's probably still 80 damage and now the PPD can hit hard. The Hydrans won't get a good shot unless it's 2 hexes or closer and the Frigates can turn or HET away before getting to this range.


Given what you have said in other threads why would it be 80 plasma damage, EM doesn't prevent running at an angle for a few impulses. I'd be over the moon if you concentrated plasma on a single ship, that leaves 3 ships to close without interruption. The FF are certainly more capable of escaping, but my primary target here would be the CS - the FF are fairly ignorable for a couple of turns once they have fired the plasma. Though that doesn't mean I would ignore them if the CS were looking awkward to catch and the FF were for the taking, or they just got in the way. And on a fixed tourney map I'd rather just barrel at the CS and obliterate them. The FF can wait for afterwards.


Quote:
That's assuming that they can get to point blank range. Rather unlikely since you're having ships drop off the chase each time they get plasma aimed at them. Besides, 32+EM costs 38 energy. These ships have 37 energy, so they're going to be dipping into battery power even if they don't use a single point of power anywhere else. If they've taken internals from the PL-F or the PPD/PH1 earlier, it's possible that they can't even maintain the pace.


You probably need to re-read, I wasn't necessarily dropping off each time a plasma was fired, the larger volley if concentrated would likely make me pull off 1 or 2 ships briefly (depending on launch range), but other launches I'd contemplate eating (situation depending). Certainly by the time you are talking about the rear firing plasma at the ships that have caught you I'd accept plasma damage to an off shield if it meant I'd be likely to dish out 60+ odd damage back.

Remember again - tourney map. Getting to point blank range or maintaining pace is not a huge issue, without a manouvering advantage the CSs really can't outrun and out turn the hydran. That becomes more so the case if there is a hydran ship or 2 slightly further back, if you slip the first couple of ships the second pair will quickly intercept.


Quote:
The CS has 32+4 power. That is enough to move 30-32 and charge PPD without dipping into batteries. After PPDs are charged, then suddenly they have 4 discretionary power each turn. Each FF has 15+2 pwr. It costs them 8 to go speed 32, so they have plenty to reload plasmas with.


If you keep your batteries you are not firing on turn 1, the hydrans are already on top of you or you stayed next to a map edge to keep away from them? If you try to hold PPDs by not firing on turn 1 then you are probably in a simlair situation. The tactic you described in the OP does not work very well unless you move out ready to fire in order to give you some manouver room for that phase when you are rearming and in need of avoiding 8 Phgs and 14 fusions and 24 other phasers.

If your CS start with pre-armed PPDs in order to fire turn 1, then you have 32 power, 18 for speed 24, 8 for PPD arming and 6 for phasers, ie. no accel, no HET. Something has to give in order to get away - the phasers?

Certainly the FF are nice ships power wise, but I don't think I have suggested otherwise, the CS are the issue.



Quote:
Once the PPDs and PL-F are reloaded, then they can HET and pick off the strung out Hydrans in detail. 20 PH1 should be able to wipe out 1 Hydran ship at close range and the PPDs should be able to take out the Hydran ship with the down shield. The 4 Plasma F on the frigates can be used to either finish off the lead ships or threaten the trailing ships.


Pl-f reloaded, thats 3 turns. You'll be lucky to be around at that point. PPDs will have an issue with myopic zone and getting into arc. That assumes they still have them, that the CS are still around, or have the power left. You seem to be assuming that you won't lose any weapons between volley one and volley 2. That seems unlikely on a fixed map where your running room is very limited against a fast foe who can slag you at point blank range.

Remember, given the suggested tactic, that your only guaranteed damage was roughly taking down a shield, that assumed you fired all those phasers, which limits your ability to turn/run. The plasma guaranteed nothing, just a likely diversion for a couple of ships (admittedly I'd probably take a downed shield from plasma rather than just keep running in this scenario). Even a single hydran getting close will probably do more internal damage to you than the hydrans will have suffered by that point, 2 hydrans getting close with just 4 power spare can cripple a CS.



Quote:
I really don't think it's as easy to make up the ground as you seem to think, especially with the fact that the Hydrans are already dipping into battery power to chase. Either you're going to have a line of strung out ships, or some ships will take power hits, or most ships will have no shields when facing the ISC. None of those is a good situation for the Hydrans.


I'm really intrigued in how the ISC are going to avoid the hydrans in a tourney (and given the initial post I am assuming that is what we are on about). They don't have the map to run, they don't have the manouverability to outturn, they don't have the power to accel and hit as hard as you want. They don't have enough plasma (quantity or quality) to fend them off.


Like I say, I am not saying the hydran will simply win. I am just pointing out that your writing them of as 'Hydran Fusion ships just die' to your OP tactics seems really naive to me. The hydran pure fusion force is quite capable of beating the ISC force you describe. It can afford ship loss on the way in and still win, and I'm struggling to see that it will lose anything in the initial volley apart from some shields.
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mojo jojo
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Joined: 23 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:


Why? what are the ISC going to do to stop it. If they move at speed then they can't really HET and accel (one or the other), turning at a slow enough turn mode makes it easy to close to 8 from a simple speed perspective. What would the ISC do to stop it, what range would they fire at before turning away? Would they burn their HET on that first turn? how long are you expecting to be able to run before the map edge becomes an issue?


The ISC blasts a ship and turns away, leaving a bunch of plasma in the face as the Orion/Vudar chases. Are you going to be running the 2nd Orion/Vudar ship into that mass of plasma? That will do the ISC's job for them.




storeylf wrote:


I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think 2 of the 4 ships would be turn mode 4. But importantly they are not the ones who will be trying to escape (turning round). The ISC are the ones who have an issue with turn modes in thi scenario. Running usually involves a hard turn which is giving up ground. I suppose there are other tactics, like just try and fly past them fast - that puts the hydran trying to turn round hard afterwards, but risks just giving the hydran a point blank shot anyway on the pass, which could well be effectively game over for the ISC.


The best Hydran fusion fleet is 2 Ranger/2 Mohawk for 444 pts. Both these ships have turn mode C. You could instead replace 2 of them with Mongols with MC C, but the Mongols are smaller ships with lesser shields and would be targetted first. And they're 11 pts less each.

storeylf wrote:

With plasma launched and PPDs/phasers fired, defeated in detail by what? 2 hydran ships signifcantly outshoot you at close range. The other 2 ships may be a bit further back, but if they're reasonably intact then the ISC don't have much chance, with 2 ships on their back and 2 ships a bit further behind the ISC have no manouver opportunities. The moment the ISC start to turn those ships further back will be on top of you. Remember you are talking tourney, that map edge will not allow the ISC to run much more than about half a turn from where they fired. If you do decide to try and 'defeat the hydran in detail' it appears you are effectively giving up on maintaining any range, as you will need all those ph1s. 20ph1s are nasty at close range, but not half as nasty as what the hydrans have. At range 1 the hydran force can potentially deliver something like 350 damage in a turn (possibly enough to destroy all 4 ISC ships, haven't checked but feels close?), If you haven't delivered decisive damage before hand (which doesn't look likely) then turning to try and face them off is a big gamble.


2 Hydran ships are going to be more than 'a bit' further back in order to avoid plasma. And one of the front ships has a down front shield and damaged side shields from the earlier PPD blast. It may have taken some internals and might not have power to pursue, especially if the ISC managed a range 10 shot and targetted pwr.


storeylf wrote:

Given what you have said in other threads why would it be 80 plasma damage, EM doesn't prevent running at an angle for a few impulses. I'd be over the moon if you concentrated plasma on a single ship, that leaves 3 ships to close without interruption. The FF are certainly more capable of escaping, but my primary target here would be the CS - the FF are fairly ignorable for a couple of turns once they have fired the plasma. Though that doesn't mean I would ignore them if the CS were looking awkward to catch and the FF were for the taking, or they just got in the way. And on a fixed tourney map I'd rather just barrel at the CS and obliterate them. The FF can wait for afterwards.


You're going 24 and you have a turn mode 5. You are going to be hit by the plasma. At best you can delay it to a 2nd impulse impact by decelerating a bunch of times. Or you can HET away, but I don't think that fits into your strategy.


storeylf wrote:

You probably need to re-read, I wasn't necessarily dropping off each time a plasma was fired, the larger volley if concentrated would likely make me pull off 1 or 2 ships briefly (depending on launch range), but other launches I'd contemplate eating (situation depending). Certainly by the time you are talking about the rear firing plasma at the ships that have caught you I'd accept plasma damage to an off shield if it meant I'd be likely to dish out 60+ odd damage back.

Remember again - tourney map. Getting to point blank range or maintaining pace is not a huge issue, without a manouvering advantage the CSs really can't outrun and out turn the hydran. That becomes more so the case if there is a hydran ship or 2 slightly further back, if you slip the first couple of ships the second pair will quickly intercept.


If you're eating the rear plasma on the 2/6 shield, you're going to be taking internals. A 1 impulse hit means 14 internals and a 2 impulse hit means 6 internals on a fresh shield. If the plasma is targetted on the ship hit by the PPD volley turn 1, then you'll be taking many more internals since their 2/6 has already been damaged.



storeylf wrote:

If you keep your batteries you are not firing on turn 1, the hydrans are already on top of you or you stayed next to a map edge to keep away from them? If you try to hold PPDs by not firing on turn 1 then you are probably in a simlair situation. The tactic you described in the OP does not work very well unless you move out ready to fire in order to give you some manouver room for that phase when you are rearming and in need of avoiding 8 Phgs and 14 fusions and 24 other phasers.

If your CS start with pre-armed PPDs in order to fire turn 1, then you have 32 power, 18 for speed 24, 8 for PPD arming and 6 for phasers, ie. no accel, no HET. Something has to give in order to get away - the phasers?

Certainly the FF are nice ships power wise, but I don't think I have suggested otherwise, the CS are the issue.


The phasers would probably give first turn. A range 9-15 shot against a EM target is probably not worth it. If the Hydrans dropped EM to fire on FF or try and chew up plasma, that's a different story.



storeylf wrote:
Pl-f reloaded, thats 3 turns. You'll be lucky to be around at that point. PPDs will have an issue with myopic zone and getting into arc. That assumes they still have them, that the CS are still around, or have the power left. You seem to be assuming that you won't lose any weapons between volley one and volley 2. That seems unlikely on a fixed map where your running room is very limited against a fast foe who can slag you at point blank range.

Remember, given the suggested tactic, that your only guaranteed damage was roughly taking down a shield, that assumed you fired all those phasers, which limits your ability to turn/run. The plasma guaranteed nothing, just a likely diversion for a couple of ships (admittedly I'd probably take a downed shield from plasma rather than just keep running in this scenario). Even a single hydran getting close will probably do more internal damage to you than the hydrans will have suffered by that point, 2 hydrans getting close with just 4 power spare can cripple a CS.



Remember, you're already dipping into battery power to pursue at all. 1 ship has been hit by at least 64 plasma, another ship has been hit by PPD and 2 rear plasma. You're looking at 2 good ships pursuing at the moment with very little if any discretionary power. These 2 ships have the same turn mode and MC as the CS, so every impulse movement orders are written down. If you don't turn at the same time as the CS, you lose a tempo. Between slips and turning at the wrong time, it becomes harder than you think to actually pin down a ship.

Even if you catch the ISC during the turn, you probably don't have enough discretionary power to fire more than the PH-G and a few PH1/PH-2 at the cost of eating potentially 20 PH1 and possibly 8 PH3, depending on discretionary power. Let's say all phasers are fired on both sides, but there is not enough power for fusions and PPD hasn't been reloaded yet. I'm assuming the exchange is off the 2 or 6 shield since the Hydran probably isn't going to centerline and that the range is 1. 2 Mohawks have 4 PH1, 8 PH2, and 8 PH3 equivalent between the 2 ships. ISC have 20 PH1, 8 PH3 between their 4 ships. The Hydrans can definitely wreck a CS in this situation, but they may very well lose both Mohawks in the process. And then they're by the Hydrans with 1 good CS and 2 good FF vs 2 very damaged Hydran ships remaining.

The ISC can also give the Hydran a very nasty choice by having the FF get range 1 first. Since they're expendable and they're more maneuverable than the Hydran, they can probably achieve centerline range 0 or 1. Between them, they have 8 PH1 and 8 PH3, which is quite enough to cripple a Mohawk. If the Hydrans don't shoot the FF, then they have only 1 ship left when they catch the CS. If they shoot the FF and nuke them, then the CS will be able to clean up the remainder.


storeylf wrote:

I'm really intrigued in how the ISC are going to avoid the hydrans in a tourney (and given the initial post I am assuming that is what we are on about). They don't have the map to run, they don't have the manouverability to outturn, they don't have the power to accel and hit as hard as you want. They don't have enough plasma (quantity or quality) to fend them off.


Like I say, I am not saying the hydran will simply win. I am just pointing out that your writing them of as 'Hydran Fusion ships just die' to your OP tactics seems really naive to me. The hydran pure fusion force is quite capable of beating the ISC force you describe. It can afford ship loss on the way in and still win, and I'm struggling to see that it will lose anything in the initial volley apart from some shields.


See above.
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